Building a Mushroom Empire with Tero Isokauppila
Alisa Nappa
TERO ISOKAUPPILA is the founder and CEO of Four Sigmatic. We chat about the history of the business, the challenges of building a mushroom company, advice for other mushroom lovers wanting to turn their passion into something that also pays their bills, mycoremediation, psilocybin, the functional mushroom industry as a whole, and so Mush More.Â
TRANSCRIPT
:00 Hey 0:11 what's up what's up you're listening to the mushroom revival Podcast is your host Alex Dora. And today we have Taro, the founder of for SIG Matic on to geek out with us about mushrooms and the whole mycology scene. 0:25 So welcome, wherever you're listening to around the world, we welcome you to get into the mushroom verse with us. So how you doing, Tara? Hey, man, thanks for having me on again. This is very exciting, longtime coming. Yeah, this is actually our third in person interview that we've ever done. So what's crazy? Yeah, I mean, the power of being remote is huge. Yeah, I'm honored. So how did you get into my trips? 0:53 Long story short to my family. So growing up in Finland, Finnish people are very mushroom friendly. And there's a lot particularly in culinary mushrooms. And I learned about them from my mom. 1:07 And growing up on our family farm that we've had, at least since 1619. And there's a lot of heritage around mushrooms. And yeah, orginally learning about Belize, and chanterelles and things like that, that we would just eat and Amanita was always the, 1:26 you know, the magical mysterious mushroom that our parents that don't need. 1:31 That's it just Dominator. 1:34 Yeah. But yeah, looking at a secret call in the back. Exactly too young, not ready for it. So yeah, that's how I originally learned it. And then I study chemistry and nutrition and got into health and wellness. And there are certain mushrooms in the functional space that peak up, particularly quarter steps, because I was a runner, but also reishi, my Toki she Toki. And then Chaga was the big, obviously, because it grows in our backyard. So it was the one and that got 2:07 a lot of my attention early on, call it 1520 years ago. 2:13 But he was also a mushroom that there was less knowledge in the west route at that point. So but it was, it was very magical and interesting. And it was, it was great to go pick it up and make some tea out of it. So what what are your parents reactions to you having this amazing mushroom company that's worldwide? And like, are they excited? Are they kind of weirded out? Is it in Finnish culture? Is it kind of expected of you to be into mushrooms? 2:43 Yes, and no, I think pretty much all Finnish people like the idea if not even practice actively in the fall to go pick up mushrooms and cooking with you know, particularly the chanterelles and, and things like that is like pretty calm, normal. 3:01 There's a free to roam in Finland, which you know, the other word for it is Every Man's Right. But the free to roam means you're allowed to pick up mushrooms and berries from any forest. So basically, we own a lot of forest at our farm, anybody can go and pick up mushrooms and berries unlimited, and they're actually you can sell them tax free to a certain limit. So there's no taxes because the government has done studies of how many millions of tonnes 3:32 spoil every year. So it's like an underutilized resource. 3:37 And you probably know that there's really no current evidence that if you pick the mushrooms or you don't, that they wouldn't still reproduce. And the mushrooms would spread. So there's plenty of it's very sustainable. Seven, they just rot in the forest. So the government trying to incentivize it, the only one exception is Chaga. Because it will then once in especially improperly harvest that would kill the tree and the tree is owned by the Forest owner. So trees are property, mushrooms and berries are for everyone, which is love it, which is interesting. So yeah, I have some friends that make food for us. And it's the coolest thing. You know, watching the evolution over like a 10 year span. And the first beginning pictures, you know, from the first couple of years are not that pretty? And then you go back and it's like, he's fully grown fruit trees and you know, there's science educating houseless populations of people that can just go and pick food for themselves. And it's like, it makes sense. I don't know why we don't do more of it. It makes sense to have to kind of get back to our roots of having food available. You know, I've been reading and listening to a bunch of audiobooks about kind of the evolution of Homosapiens and multiple books that are talking about how our life expectancy went down. 5:00 When we evolved into like a, an agriculture focused society, as a people, like when we were hunters and gatherers, our lifespan was a lot longer. And it just took us a long time to get to the life expectancy that we do have now. And that had to do with, you know, 5:21 you know, the nutrient density of our food when we moved to an agriculture style, civilization was just lower. And then also, we were just like, overworking ourselves were hunters and gatherers, we, you know, we're more in tune with nature and, you know, XYZ. So I wonder if bacteria and viruses and, and plagues and stuff like that had a play there as well, just because, right, once you had agriculture, or some early versions of agriculture, you also started building larger villages and, and pee and poop and animals and stuff like that. Sanitation became an issue. And I feel like most if not all religions have a route and just sanitation. Yeah, they were organizations for sanitation in many ways. So. But yeah, 6:12 it's the amount of history as you get in the wild as a hunter gatherer is high, but then calories are low, and then tends to be the opposite with agriculture is, and then chosen to mushrooms, too. There's so many people that, you know, come from, like a permaculture farming background, and then get into studying mushrooms. And they're like, why are you trying to sterilize everything if I go in the woods? And they're growing out of the dirt? You know, and they're growing out of poop? Like, why? Why are you wearing full Tyvek suits and sterilizing everything on your percent? And, you know, like, it feels like we're going backwards. And that's like what I've heard from so many people have saying, you know, this doesn't seem to make sense. Why can I? Why can I just throw spores in, in dirt, like in the wild, and it's funny, like, looking at reishi cultivation in China, but it's all grown outdoors, or a lot of it is, you know, buried logs and hoop houses outdoors. And I think one sentiment that we both share is how far behind the US is with the whole mushroom industry? What are your thoughts on that of where we can kind of improve as a whole mycology community here in the US? Yeah, just to touch on the first part about need for 7:30 sterilization or need for pesticides in the plant side, it's a lot about species selection, it's certain species are sturdy, and don't need those pesticides. And that should be already an indication of their strength. But the other way you it's a yield question. So some speed so you know, people just want to produce maximum yield maximum calories with the acreage they have for business side, but in general, there's many plant and fungal species that are 8:04 they just survive. They don't need and reishi is a great example of that. 8:09 But yeah, as far as the US goes, I'm not American. I'm from Finland. I've had the luck fortunate to live in 10 countries and travel here and there and I have to say, which 10 are. 8:22 And then Canada, 8:25 France, Switzerland, 8:29 Hong Kong slash China. I don't know how you want to count that. Philippines, Australia. 8:35 Us, Italy, England. 8:39 That, are we there? Anyway, yeah. Cool. So 8:46 I would say the, the interesting part is the US is very innovative in many regards. And there's a lot of in the herbalist movement, there's a lot of knowledge here. At the same time, particularly in fungal maybe because of the Anglo Saxon influence the British influence, which had been notoriously myco phobic us is way behind and what I find hilarious about America is the xenophobia and America first centric mentality, which I do appreciate, like the patriotic thing in certain regards, but you shouldn't be naive. And it's funny how certain people think, you know, like a California grown mushroom is better than 9:26 South West or southeast Chinese. reishi. 9:30 Yeah, it's just to me, it's just funny and how 9:34 Harrigan um, this is strong word how 9:38 it's like, oh, confident, people who don't even know where the mushrooms come from, or even what is a mushroom? Like pretty? Yeah, fairly basic. Like, what is the definition of a mushroom? And then they say, 9:51 I mean, yeah, these these USP studies to show that 74% of reishi supplements sold in the US don't contain reishi. Like, that's a real thing. 10:00 And, but there is an arrogance and confidence that is quite wild and reminds me of living in France and I will interact with a lot. I got this government grant. So I had to study French in a, in a university to get the grant that was like a requirement. And it's mostly a lot of American students and, and there was like a big beginner course in French. And at the end of the course, none of us could speak French, but like we had like, bare minimum, and I knew what the level of bare minimum was. And like people would after that one course of like, few months of studying French poorly, would put like their intermediate in their resume in ranch. Right? And it was just mind blowing to me is like, 10:42 if that's your intermediate, I don't want to know what expert or advanced looks like. Right? Right. So I'm fluent. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I can speak French. And then, or I meet these people. It's like, I can speak French or Spanish. And then you start speaking Spanish to them. And they're like, Well, I haven't spoken since then. They immediately switch to English. Yeah. Yeah. So no, I'm constantly humbled that my, my level of Spanish all the time, and it it's good to be humble. I, you know, I think, 11:13 yes, as Americans, but just all people in general, it's good to good to just, like lower that notch a little bit. And that's why I love mushrooms is they're really good at it, you know, psilocybin, they are really good at lowering your notch. And, you know, taking even to the, the extreme of just the 11:34 anthropocentric view that we have not even nationalism, but just like humanism, that we think we're the center of the universe, and we're so important, and we're going to save the world and the world needs saving, and we're going to do it, you know. 11:51 And, yeah, 11:54 funny side story at my company for SIG Matic we used to have when I did onboarding, I would force everybody to watch this stand up comedy piece of George Carlin. Oh, I joined Hell yeah. And it's funny, because like, our mission is to elevate people's wellness. But I think it's like important to know that we are not saving the planet. Yeah, like, at bare minimum will be net neutral, in some regard, totally. And it's good to keep that in mind while still striving, and like, making progress towards a better world. But it's the arrogance of saving the planet is pretty, pretty wild for a species that barely is able to take care of themselves. I would love your insight on this because I was just having a conversation with my herbalist friend and I have so many friends in kind of the grassroots 12:50 scene. And this happens to a lot of mushroom people, it happens to a lot of herbalist happens to a lot of farmers, it happens to a lot of people that want to be at the root, they want to be as connected to the earth as possible. But at the same time, you know, a lot of us are living in a capitalist society. And so we have to pay our bills, and we want to put our passion and our love into a business. But that kind of goes against a lot of these ethics, you know, and I see people struggle with this of, they want to make an herbalist business or they want to make a mushroom business, but then they're so conflicted at the business part, you know, and, and they, it's just kind of like, they have this view that business is evil, and and then they have trouble scaling and making an impact. And there's this this, this inner conflict going on. So I'm just curious on where you stand, because you guys plant trees, you have sustainable packaging. I mean, you're giving people functional mushrooms, but like you just said, you're not saving the world, you're going to be net neutral. I know you had to guess at best, and you're getting into projects, you know, with micro remediation, and psilocybin like what, what's your kind of stance on? How do you view you scaling such a big company and kind of your ethics around 14:21 healing and doing good? 14:23 Yeah, I faced this from early on, and I talked to about this to a bunch of my herbalist, fungal, loving friends. And usually the starting point I would have is, 14:39 is having like a system thinking or having a broader view I often find in these conversations people get really stuck in one thing, such as just about how do I pay my rent, or just about the product, instead of having a more holistic view of like, 14:57 it's almost like designing your life is 15:00 If you just obsess in one area of your life, and then you forget every other area of your life, it's probably going to bite you in the butt later. Yeah. So, you know, while you might be really into health, and you're doing everything for fitness, there's also other areas of life that you need to take care of, 15:23 you know, relationships, friendships, and those all require an investment. So, first starting point, I feel like a lot of people don't see the forest from the trees. And they get really stuck in a specific area, such as the product or the service, or this and that, and like I can charge because I'm helping people. But if you're not charging soon, you're not able to help people. So the other one that comes to mind is, we've had now 13 generations of farming in Finland, which is 100 year old country. And then before that, it was a little over 100 years under Russian empire with the chars. And before that 600 years put under Sweden, and we've seen a civil war. And we really didn't know that well. So under that time, the foreign people like oh, what do you what have you farmed in those 13 generations, like, it's changed a lot, and 13 generations and like, right now, it's like oats and barley, and some mushrooms and berries, but it changed many times over 30, you have to be adaptable. 16:26 So my dad often says, it's like, hey, in nature. 16:32 A one quarter is 25 years, not three months, so having patience. But then secondly, first rule of sustainability is financial sustainability. And we've had famous seed companies try to come and claim that we're using their seeds, because when broad seeds into our fields, a classic, classic scam there. But like, if you don't have financial safety, sustainability, those seed companies, if you can't afford to buy seeds, or if you can't afford to work on pay for your rent, you cannot then sustain your herbalist practice. So right looking at it through the impact, and sustainability. But then, having a balance there, I think is important. 17:15 And it's just sad to me is like that there's this battle, because there's so still, if you take the whole population, in the US, there's still so many few of these people doing good work or having the the curiosity and the passion towards healing arts or of any kind. And it's just sad that they get stuck. Because the real enemy is the Monsanto the real enemy of fast food the real enemy is. 17:43 So I wouldn't get stuck in the details, and just trying to find ways to help people, and then slowly progress and make improvements. And then on the flip side of, you know, there's some people that gets stuck on the tree and can't see the forest. But then there's other people that gets stuck in the forest, and they can't see the tree, where they they're trying to do too many things at once. You know, and they want to just, you know, and they get burnt out, they're trying to spin so many plates, like I see so many people that are like, oh, I want to do a micro remediation company and myco materials company, and a functional mushroom company and a gourmet mushroom company, and I want to do this, and I want to do this, and then they don't do any they you know, they don't do any of it, or they only get like a foot in for all these different projects. So like for you, you have a really successful functional mushroom company. You're now working with psilocybin, you know, about to go deeper have a passion with micro mediation. I'm sure you're doing a million other things having two kids. Yeah, and more. How do you how do you stay grounded? You seem like a calm person. I don't know how you are behind closed doors, but 19:01 Well, well, I think step one is a lot of people 19:08 want to be entrepreneurs. And I think you can learn a lot about entrepreneurship and there's a lot of value and I was kind of always born and raised as an entrepreneur. But I would recommend also working for someone if nothing else, as like kind of apprentice paid apprentice type model. So by working with someone who is more experienced than you, you can actually gain a lot of knowledge. So the pressure especially in your 20s to like have all the answers and be an entrepreneur and start a gourmet and mushroom company, functional mushroom company, mushroom material company. Those are all like hyper specific back to the the arrogance and even good hearted people is like hey, like if you start meditation and you want to learn a Japanese meditation skill, you it's probably like a 20 year journey to be some sort of level of teacher let alone on 20:00 No expert. So yeah to putting the 10,000 hours in before you start your company, or at least 5000 hours in. So if you haven't don't have those 5000 hours in yet, maybe you should go and work and somebody will literally pay you to learn, right. And I think that's a big struggling point. Because I mean, really passionate, smart, amazing people who are early in their journey. And they're launching their businesses that are complicated for even people with experience. So it makes me just wonder if like, Maybe you should take the next three to five years. And that way you can guarantee your livelihood, you can have patience to that 25 year point is like, maybe takes a moment to build those. So I think that's kind of important. And then as far as 20:47 my interest around functional mushrooms, that was very organic, because like, my passion was health and wellness, I studied nutrition, my mom taught physiology and anatomy. So that came very organically there. And it's really been like a 20 year journey for me and actively working on the business 10 years to get to a point where I can like confidently couple years ago, like eight years in, I could say okay, I will partner with a psilocybin education center called synthases, which was the first legal psilocybin clinic in Netherlands now they're training practitioners in the US with a partnership with Imperial College. Like all these things, like I didn't, I didn't start it, like I partnered as an advisor in a part time capacity. Because, you know, I have long history with psilocybin, but I'm a novice in the large scheme of things. And synthesis is done. But I don't know what the latest statistics but had more legal psilocybin data than anyone else. And Imperial College is probably top three, top five as well, from a data point of view. So just their experience in a legal setting is profound. And I learned so much. Also, I could contribute with my own knowledge. And now with micro remediation, which I think just generally, plastics in particular is such a real crisis. Just curious to be part of like a team that is inventing and 22:16 investing really, that's what it really is, is investing in future solutions for 22:23 using fungi against plastic. So yeah, to answer it, you know, it takes decades. To learn something, you got to have patience, you can learn from others, you can partner with them with more experience. So you're not alone. And or you can go work for someone, it doesn't have to be permanent, but even two to four years on to someone who's more experienced can make worlds of difference on what you want to do later. Yeah, and it's, it's really funny. I don't know if you share this, as well. But the more 22:59 I've learned about mushrooms and mycology, in general, or the every single time I 23:06 eat magic mushrooms, that actually I, I know, I know, less. 23:13 Like, the more pee every time I do an interview with anyone on this podcast. You know, it was years ago, like I thought I was a mushroom expert. And I thought, you know, I knew something about micro remediation, or I thought I could hold ceremonies for psilocybin or whatever. And now I'm like, I don't know anything. And that is just, it's a cool moment. You know, the more you know, the more you don't know, but But seriously, I mean, it is funny. It's like, Yeah, put in the 10,000 hours but for me, I think one of the biggest lessons is it creates more of a beginner's mind and it in it's almost like a false false circle. Were right in the beginning you're starry eyed. You don't know anything. And then you get kind of this ego of like, Oh, now I know something. And then once you've pushed further then you're like, oh, actually, I don't 24:08 I don't know anything at all. Then you're back to square one of Wow, the world is wide open and I can't wait to learn, you know, and it's it's a funny cycle to be in. Yeah, I get it. I do public speaking or go to podcast and people who are not in the mushroom space will introduce me as like a mushroom expert. Sometimes they even work at Terrace, the mushroom person just because I've written a best selling book or because for SIG Matic is one of the largest mushroom companies. And I always cringe so bad. And I also by the way, cringe when someone else gets introduced as the leading mushroom, like whoever. And it's like, it's first of all, what does that even mean? Right? Because it's such a big kingdom, and there's just so many fields and if you're in 25:00 expert in one field, you're immediately behind the, the curve. What's that American expression behind a curve? Eight Ball? Yeah, I think both of them 25:12 behind the eight ball on, on everything else like yeah, I need amazing culinary mushroom, let's say foragers. Yeah. And then you start bringing them up with about functional mushrooms and polypores. And they're like, I don't really know much about them, right? And you're like, Okay, great. Then you meet someone who's an expert in functional mushrooms. And you ask a little bit about like, Hey, what's your micro remediation, or even psilocybin related? And they're like, 25:37 pretty rudimentary, and you meet top herbalist for health, and they're just completely clueless about 25:45 mushrooms for human health. And very, they carry a lot of myths. So it's like, A, what does that even mean? Being a mushroom expert, like legit, what is mean? And then the likelihood at let's say, that, like, I talk a lot about Chaga, because of my ancestry and long history of using it, but I would never go claim that I'm an expert in Chaga, compared to Dr. Kjersti, Carlos, or someone who's done 40 years of research just on Chaga Yeah, and meanwhile, I'm running a business. So I have to learn about HR and dumb legal stuff, and FDA and FTC and shipping and inventory. So I'm like, I'm consuming a lot of my brain with non mushroom stuff. So there's no way I'm, I'm the leading mushroom expert, maybe like a generalist at best. And but in reality, for every one of these areas, there's like 100 people that are way more advanced that just dedicated their life to a single mushroom or single mushroom family, or a type of use of applied use of fungi. 26:51 Have you had a role model? 26:54 Throughout this whole process, and it doesn't even have to be a mushroom person, but just in general, are maybe a few. 27:01 I mentioned one, George Carlin for philosophy. The other one Anthony de Mello has been very impactful just because I found his work when I was in like 20. So I think those are, those are major like kind of philosophy. 27:18 As far as business, there's been a few 27:23 the base camp formerly 37 signals, guys that helped build like a remote company with like, lifestyle first, and raising little to no money had a big impact. Just on a philosophy of like, hey, what entrepreneurs should be, instead of like this hustle mentality and raising tons of money, so that had a big impact. 27:46 But honestly, like nature is number one teacher by far, and I mean psilocybin a lot, but I also think a lot of like, consistent daily use of things like reishi and Chaga. For my gut health, and I can only imagine what the gut brain help I get every day from like consistent, many decades use of those allies. 28:12 So we're taking a little intermission here, we had some technical difficulties, half of our recording just decided not to record anymore, so we're trying it again one day later. And now we're remote so the recording quality might be shifted a little bit but we're gonna keep going with with this awesome conversation. 28:32 So Taro, what has been the hardest part of this entire journey for you? 28:40 Yeah, revival so high that the technology couldn't handle it. So 28:47 less than you can handle it. Oh, yeah. We buy here we are again. 28:53 Yeah, one of the hardest part is like everything is hard. Everything is like sales are hard. Inventory is hard. growing mushrooms is hard. Formulating is hard. But I think the two prominent answers I would say it's one everything hard has to do with people either building the team or partnerships with with retailers or partnerships with thought leaders, and it's usually always like people related. So I think the people element even though we're dealing with fungi, I guess was humans aren't part fungi, but 29:27 I think it's people related. And then the other one as an entrepreneur is that the hardest thing is yourself. It's like you are your worst enemy and best friend and it's like the roller coaster that you'll go through. Where one day you feel like you're on top of the world the other day, I think you're like a total fraud and impostor or an idiot or can handle anything. I think handling the inner game of tennis as I like to think of it is like, probably the hardest part to anything with people or anything. More specifically with 30:00 with yourself. And if you're really strong 30:04 self awareness and you know, strong presence to yourself, it makes everything easier. Vice versa. 30:13 Yeah, it is really a fast track towards self development and also just working community. And we joke around about this a lot. And I'm sure you do with your your friends and colleagues about, you know, how different the Finnish culture is. 30:33 With the American culture, specifically around just a lot of social interactions. There's just a different energy and 30:41 you know, I 30:44 I sent you this comedian before, you might have already knew him, but it's smo I think, is pronounced his name. Yeah, he's super funny. And he's from Finland. And he had this skit where he was like, yeah, just to kind of paint the picture. I had this neighbor that I lived right next to in an apartment building for like, 10 years, we've never spoken one word to each other. We got stuck in an elevator for five hours. And he's like, after five hours, the thought came into my head. I should probably say something. 31:16 And he goes, I never said anything. And then we got off the elevator and and he's like, That's just you know, 31:23 yeah, this this, you know, this. So I'm just curious of being from from Finland and you have people on your team from Finland? Has that caused any tension or just miscommunications on your team? As you're kind of building this community and team? 31:41 Yes, so many, some phonies. Something that's so funny. There's a one saying that how do you separate an introverted and extroverted thin, well, introverted friend is so introverted, as they're having a conversation with you, they keep staring at their feet, and the extroverted friend keeps staring at your feet. So that's the difference between the two. And there's this cartoon that you can find online called finished nightmares. I think they're an Instagram, but they also website, and it's a book by everybody, I should do that again. But I bought everybody in the company, this book about finish nightmare situations that make us really uncomfortable, like having to sit next to someone in a public transport, or having to say your name, or someone says your name more than once when they're talking to like hate Darrow. When you think Tara about this, and you get super uncomfortable. So it's funny in some of its created a fun culture between the two different 32:43 types of people, but at the same time, it's the bluntness, like, once we speak, it's very factual. And I think that's cost. Some frictions, and I mean, I, at least as a, as an, as a leader, have had highs and lows. And a lot of my employees, direct reports have said they've learned in one year more than they've learned in five years, and other companies or whatever. But at the same time, it might be rare to receive blunt, honest feedback, like I shared on how I feel, and it's not for everyone. And yeah, there's a lot of weird cultural differences. 33:21 Coming from Finland to here, and in general, when, when our group is pretty eclectic, so like marrying people's personalities together, it's been a fun journey. But I have to say that it's been really difficult times as well, that teaches me at least to learn a lot about myself and about the world. 33:41 Yeah, it, it. It's really funny. I mean, I started mushroom revival thinking, you know, I'm going to be in the lab all the time, I'm going to be growing mushrooms, I didn't think about the people aspect, you know, and all these other things, you have to be a master in shipping and FDA compliance and all these different things. 33:58 I think one of 34:00 the one of the best pieces of advice that I got from my mom was this concept called the Ice Cream Sandwich. And she was a boss for many years and had to give a lot of very uncomfortable feedback to a lot of people all the time. And she, you know, was very empathetic. And so that was really hard to give hard feedback. And, you know, the ice cream sandwich technique was, you know, if you're ever giving advice or feedback that is potentially uncomfortable, you have to sandwich it between two positive things. Either you say something they did really well or something like that, but it makes it go so much smoother, because, you know, it's sandwiched in between these positive good things. And, yeah, it really goes to show I see so many people, starting mushroom companies or brands or they think they quit their full time job and they're like, I'm gonna be in you know, thank God now I can be into mushrooms 24/7 instead 35:00 have, you know, the couple hours after work as a hobby, and then I talked to them like an hour, like a year later, and they're like, I barely i, now I have my mushroom brand. And I actually spend less time studying with mushrooms than I did before where I had a full time other job. And it just, it's like that it's all interconnected. And it's really funny, you know, you learn, you're kind of you have to be a jack of all trades and a master of all, you know. 35:28 Yeah, and, and that's, that's a great anecdote to be working with fungi, or in general about anything is, you know, our beliefs become our thoughts, our thoughts become our words, our words become our actions, our actions become our habits and our habits, our beliefs, and it goes the other way around, as well. So what do you spend most of your time is probably things that you get better at, and get into that 10,000, even 5000 hours, you need to work on it. And if you're, if you're listening to this, and you're, you're a huge fan of, let's say cultivation of fungi, or foraging of fungi, I can guarantee like, a Western company, because you'll learn so much about hiring, inventory, freaking sales and marketing, FBA This is that but very little about cultivation, or very little about foraging. And that's also the case with like, fungal research, like, that's the best thing about writing a book, which I'm curious to get your take on it, but it like actually gives me a block of time for six months, a year, whatever, to x many hours to go to research, because if I don't have, if I wouldn't write a book, I'm gonna feel like, I'll be on the email slack to do meeting people in person. And like, so many things are not the research or not. And that's why I love formulation, because it like gets me out of, you know, inventory, FDA business, this and that things that we have to deal with to keep the lights on to keep payroll and everybody employed, able to get their living. And, and even if you hire great people for accounting and hierarchy for sales, they still somehow X amount of work ends up on your desk. So Oh, yeah, practice 37:21 what you want to get better and make sure the daily life is that and then what you want to do every day is designed around that. And, and that's why like many people love to work with fungi, actually, probably company, in my experience, but like join a company where you can just do that hard and be hyper specialized and narrow in the in the love. 37:45 Yeah, and that's, I think, a big lesson. I mean, I see a lot of value because I I am an aspirational polymath, not an actual polymath, but like aspirational one, I do find a lot of joy and learning about 38:00 shipping, for example, like I actually do, yeah, show it, but I wouldn't want to do it all day long. And there's a lot of things if you're not careful, you end up spending your time on things that you don't enjoy way too much. and not enough on the tasks that you love. 38:19 Yeah, I mean, you were you're talking about, you know, getting to focus on the tree and not seeing the forest. Right and, and like having a Northstar to focus on. And like for me, I 38:34 I was working for a mushroom company, and I didn't, you know, I looked 510 years in the future and eventually, you know, I want to have a family and you know, support my kids and you know, be able to have time to go on these cool foraging trips out of the country and like, be able to do it, but that certain setup that I had, wouldn't allow that in the future. So I'm like, Okay, I'll start my own business knowing that for the next five plus years, I'm going to be focused on shipping and payroll, and you know, 39:07 employee management and all these different things, working 100 hour weeks for the first couple years and then eventually outsourcing everything getting the system so eventually I can step out and have time to block six months to write a cool book and focus on nerding out about mushrooms or have this you know, this podcast time where I can interview people like you and eventually step out where I can, you know, do the cool things that I really wanted to do but knowing it's going to take some years you know and but having that Northstar helps me wake up in the morning and so for you like what is your Northstar? What is your end goal or vision or is it changing every day? 39:51 I have one for life and then for business and fungi and my passion has always been even though I'm forging 40:00 In my colleges, my passion has been around health and wellness. And through that I've gotten into psychedelics or starting books on mushrooms, 40:10 and then psychedelics and now I'm interested in environmental factors and how to use fungi for that. But acid has been like how do I elevate as many people's life as I can from a wellness point of view. And that's like a critical factor. And so if you want to start anything, from fungi, like really think about the Northstar the why write it down, put it everywhere, see everyday visual, and keep that in mind. super flexible and approach but be firm on that belief. So for example, Mike, 40:44 as this podcast that can kick out a bit. 40:48 We buy and for SIG Matic, our mushrooms from China and Russia. And Lee, like every third for the fifth person who hears that we correctly used to be kind of cool, because we buy target from Siberia and not that PR or the now. So when we say that they're like, whoa, what are you doing buying from China. So I have no marketing benefit on buying from China or Russia at all. It's a huge name. And the Muslims from China and Russia are up to 10 times more expensive 10 times. So if I would move to mycelium grown and green, coming from California, I would cut my costs 41:30 a fraction of what it is today and I could tell everybody cool promotions but why I don't do that and why like aging 10 is one of the core principles and for SIG Matic is remembering the ancient 41:44 while those California mushrooms are not actual mushrooms, and that they don't have the active comp needed to elevate health and wellness in 41:54 buying overpriced grains that actually hurts people's digestive system because their grains and they people can't handle it. So that is why like if I want the easy way out and make money you buy from California, US 42:12 overpriced mycelium you have way harder, higher margins. So you don't have to explain to anybody because consumers are fairly emotionally literate. Instead you have to like educate them and understand what's the difference between mycelium and fruit body. For health and wellness, you have to explain primordial mushrooms are not actual mushroom, and how it works, the lifecycle of the fungi, and how you can even call 42:39 on God. And at the same time, like muscle mycelium players with massive margins and tons of money or like just like bad mouthing site, china shop or whatever, heck, even Finland and it's like xenophobia. And when we have those same fungi and produced with Chinese rice with Chinese machines and probably 43:00 Latin workers, so I don't know how American aid Yes. And I mean, as a finished person, I would almost ask like what is America? Like for patriotic feeling? But like what does that really mean that they're here. 43:15 But at the same time for me it's health and wellness, I go to bed at night selling mycelium knowing that there's no active compounds and that the cost of production is few dollars and people are paying like scholars for the products that are just based on current science like complete BS. They don't have medical use for animals don't continue to see deer getting mycelium so like how I could go to bed and why like I take the hard way. 43:48 And pay more like way more actually. So yeah, that's a great example. Northstar come something to do the difficult decision. Because it's aligned with the scar versus go the easy way of how 44:03 to take it to a different destination destination. You don't want to get to when you should be careful on what kind of person you'll find yourself at the end. If if if you don't follow? 44:17 Exactly, I go to a functional mushroom conference like biannual and they change countries every single time. So three years ago was in Nan Tong China above Shanghai. This upcoming fall it's in Serbia. And it's it's really funny once you pop the bubble of the United States how or just North America in general, just the different 44:43 levels of conversations around functional mushrooms and just mycology in general. There's not this overzealous American nationalism that we have here around mushrooms and everyone thinks they're the top leading expert in the world and they're 45:00 BREAKING grounds and they're like, doing all this amazing stuff. And then you you visit other places and it's like, oh, nevermind. Yeah, like they're actually doing, you know, they have been doing it WAY longer have way more money invested into it have published way more papers and are way more humble about it because they realize like, yeah, we've been doing this for so long we realize how much we don't know. And, and they kind of it was really funny every time I brought up mycelium on grain, you know, the last conference, they're like, oh, that's just some silly American thing. Like we don't, that's not really a thing anywhere else. 45:42 And I know that they were kind of perplexed about the whole thing. They're like, well, obviously, it's not as potent, like, look at the science, like, why are you? Why do y'all keep talking about it? Like, and it's funny how it is such a debate here, you know, it's like, and people call It's a debate, you know, it's like, it's not, it's really crystal clear. And it is, yeah, I, it feels like we're in our infancy here, which is frustrating, but also exciting. You know, it's exciting to be on this wave of people getting excited about it. But with that, it's the wild wild west, so to speak of, you know, there's a lot of misconceptions that we have to get over. So we can actually proceed, you know, as an industry. 46:26 So apart from mycelium on grain fruiting bodies, what other areas do you think that the functional mushroom space can 46:36 evolve or push forward? 46:42 And, specifically, on the functional side, obviously, like, 46:47 I love that we're focused on like, reishi, and lions in Chaga. And these are all amazing fungi, but that's like, you know, tip of the iceberg on what are the species out there and dinar and the cordyceps family, there's so many varieties and so much knowledge there. And so I think, in a way, because Americans are so mine at the same time, so mark, like confident and eccentric, so like, they make, like, I truly think like, if you're confused about functional medicine to you, you could probably he, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean 47:26 the only one to take or that it's this like 47:30 everything for everyone at all times. So there's so many varieties to college but because America is behind and because there's so like hyper marketing, branding, and branding a certain fungi, like he likes me 47:47 so heavily then end result is that there's a lot of other species don't, there's just like, people are behind. Yeah, like, even of course, Sigmatic like we sell tend to mushroom blend like you do. But at the same time, like, really, like consumers can hold the knowledge more made. Men like totally start talking about Miss 48:11 typing. Yeah, even my takia and I people are like all out. So I think this over time slowly, may be a species of the Year by the general public who will catch up on some of these species and, and will probably by then, hopefully, science will discover new interesting compounds and effects and the use case, it's the other one, which clearly changed the use case it would both a blessing and a curse. Like you can see these protein bars, you can see our TV drinks, so ready to drink, ever can beverages. That's great, because I think the flavor is a limitation. And also, convenience is a real limitation, but at the same time, you're not taking an effective dose or the right thing. So then if you're a protein bar brand who doesn't understand anything about fungi, you're probably going to buy that powder that doesn't have effective ingredients because taste might taste like rye, or oats because that's what it is rice or oats. At the same time. You don't really know that doesn't deliver on those health benefits. So there's a little bit of like, 49:22 sometimes intentional, sometimes unintentional, 49:26 misleading to consumers, but I think the good news is there more creative ways to consume bring it to a novice consumer 49:37 on the fungi side. So I think those are benefits that it's popping up. What I do think will happen now is so many 49:48 there's the hype cycle, both with weed and now I think with psilocybin and it has happened with functional mushroom. People who are like, 49:59 for whatever 50:00 purposely can don't do the research start a company. I think given the inflation and fighting pressures and all the things, the headwind, it's going to be really rough two years for everyone. And I think we'll see a lot of these brands dying, that will have 50:16 already started seeing, see play. So I think there'll be a boss. And I think a lot of companies will go bankrupt. And I think in years, there's going to be a small amount of the brands that there are today. 50:31 Which is, you know, a little sad, but also very understandable. 50:36 Yeah, I mean, it happened with CBD as well. I mean, you know, and it happens a lot with people that have a ton of money to spend, maybe they're, they just got out of cannabis or something, or I see a lot of this happening of companies wanting to get into psilocybin. And then they realize that they can't make any revenue off of it. So then they start a functional mushroom brand, just because it's legal, they could have some funds going to appease their investors, but they don't know anything about it. You know, they didn't have zero mushroom background whatsoever. They make a quick product, throw it out there, kind of proof of concept. And a lot of times it's, you know, mycelium on grain and they don't know any better, you know that because the supplier is selling them as mushrooms in it. And even if not, they they you know, it's a good marketing story. 51:26 What do you think of this the upcoming psilocybin space? Or What were you gonna say 51:32 that to you is, you know, the suppliers, you know, themselves no longer say it's mushrooms, or they say, mycelium and mushrooms. They've been hit hard by. 51:46 But they let small brands who buy from them say it because they know small brands can find the radar and they don't they're not in jeopardy. So it's been weird to see that despite the top in efforts are more and more confirmed, like you said there. It's not really even a debate between Apple mushrooms to body versus mycelium, Corona and green. 52:10 But at the same time, if you look at the marketplace, the mycelium backs have increased because of the vendor led misleading and as well like lack of knowledge from the mushroom entrepreneur. So I'm just curious to hear what do you think will happen from an education point of view? They're like everybody was in the machine space knows that. It's not even a debate. But at the same time, on the one down, it's almost all mycelium. And 52:39 you know, I, I actually just went to the website of the Maine mycelium on grain supplier here in the US, and they're right on the homepage, it says 100%. Organic, I won't say we're mushrooms. 52:54 So they're still saying it. And I'm surprised, you know, because it's been written up by the FDA for the last 50 years or so that you can't say that, you know, and so it's it is illegal. And I'm surprised there hasn't been any repercussions happen. I'm, I assume it's going to be a big class action lawsuit. I've been saying that for a few years of you know, because it is misleading people I'm not going to do I'm not going to do that I'm just waiting for someone. 53:30 There's a lot of lawyers out there who are drooling at any opportunity for a class action lawsuit. So in this, you know, as as the space is getting bigger, might happen. And I don't want anyone to get into a lawsuit. I'm not wishing that on anybody. But it just seems a little, a little aggressive and a little overconfident 53:53 to where trouble is bound to happen. 53:59 And on the same side, there's more people getting into mycelium. But there's also a lot more companies kind of proudly waving the badge of we're 100% fruiting bodies, which is cool to see, you know, and even with it being way more expensive that we're talking about. 54:18 It's uncomfortable to say hey, we're getting our mushrooms from China and Russia with it's like the worst PR right now. Even though they're they're just way more potent. And the mushroom industry here in the US just isn't there yet to support mushroom companies having mushroom extra extracts with 100% Mushroom fruiting bodies. Unfortunately, we're just not there yet. 54:44 The mushroom farms in the US are just really small and we only produce a couple of species and it's really for gourmet, not for functional. So it's going to take a while. I'm still hopeful and you know, I just we just need more people educating and trying to boil it 55:00 down as simple as possible for people to digest. And, you know, I, I, 55:08 I don't know, if the, if psilocybin is going to help or hurt, you know, it definitely gets more people interested in mushrooms, like how to change your mind on Netflix, you know, the fantastic fungi documentary, like it's getting more people into fungi. So more people have their ears open. So we just need more people actually telling the truth, and, you know, backing their statements by by 55:35 was that would help because more people are knowledgeable, but what I've noticed that some of the key ones is the good brakes for psilocybin, it's some of the most vocal people I've seen are the people who know the least, and have the less leaf experience. So they really see the documentary and read like quarter of a book. And Eric so vocal on social media and keeping like, pictures, I've seen this in LA, where like, you're pitching others on fungi after watching the documentary and, and same with psilocybin is now psilocybin practitioner or like, 56:11 Ro, or are I female shaman, Dyk? Like, I even seen one that has never taken the vitamin psilocybin 56:24 practitioner, which is that so it's like, just like, 56:31 that's a whole nother. 56:33 The more you learn, the more you quiet get, same time feels like the people who are just seeing a documentary on Netflix and like, everybody how amazing mycelium is without knowing how it's grown, or what's the effects on human health. So I think he has, it's a double edged sword. But I think over time, when people will read more than 56:56 take a couple more studies and maybe visit a facility or try to grow it at home before edge. Nobody really goes from mycelium foraging, unless you're 57:06 some sort of mycologist tried to find some species or samples, but really, like, doing a little bit of therapy, I think, will lead to people. I feel like initially, during COVID With those two documentaries, particularly it seems like it's happened to up 57:25 in the most small part has been the one that 57:31 and maybe that's also on on the mushroom community as a whole. But yeah, that's my gut feeling. And that's why you're with psilocybin, particularly 57:41 uncomplicate your take on what what you see will happen, but obviously the science and the people were committed, 57:48 there's so much progress, I've been so proud to see how much. And if you would have asked me three, four or five years ago and where we are ahead. At the same time, there's a lot of particularly people who are pumped and dump cannabis company. So they, you know, did this company crazy valuations, investors lost money, they took money, money was Sol and this and that, and now starting 58:13 psilocybin companies or other forms of psychedelics, and it's, it seems like the school like, you know, NF T's or infinite early days, where it doesn't mean internet is, 58:25 is a ghost cycle where it crashes and burns really hard. I guess we've seen a few of these. And it is, 58:36 it is a little worrying, particularly on the practitioner side. I think it's a fun little adventure. 58:44 You know, out in the wonder, and diving in that, like we all have gone through, and hopefully we'll go through which is like having a support network, the center of the city 58:56 is important. And so 58:58 I think that's, that's fascinating, but what do you what do you see as like, what excites you in the psilocybin side? And what makes you nervous? I think we covered a lot of what makes me nervous, you know, and I think that's pretty clear. And I've, I've had to kind of come to peace with all of that is going to happen, there's going to be a ton about apples out there, you know, and a bunch of, quote unquote bad apples with great intentions, you know, they have the best intentions, but maybe they're overzealous way over their head. And maybe some bad things will happen. But they mean really well. There are other people who are only in for it to the money, they will stab backs and do some gnarly stuff. And that's just they're in it for and they're going to make a lot of money and there's going to people, people are going to crash and burn. And then there's going to be people 59:49 in for the right reasons and really helping people and creating really beautiful things. You know, there's going to be all of it and 59:59 it's all 1:00:00 We're going to happen and, you know, it's up to also the consumer to figure out the quote unquote good guys, if you want to use that terminology or, you know, humans or entities or whatever you want to call it, but 1:00:16 And that's hard, it's hard to sift through all the noise especially with it, a booming, whatever it is, you're you know, 1:00:23 it because there's there is already so much noise, and it hasn't really even taken off yet. And I I'm are, I'm already overwhelmed by all the noise and, and it really hasn't even been established yet. So 1:00:39 yeah, I'm hoping for some really good players that can have, you know, centers to really help people and they can stay grounded and stay true and stay humble, and like really offer some really potent medicine for people to have these experiences. 1:00:58 And at the same time, I'm also hopeful because 1:01:03 philosophy cubensis is probably one of the easiest system, if not the easiest mushrooms to grow. So if it gets, you know, a big monopoly, or whatever, anyone could grow it under their bed. So easy for like a couple of bucks. And so it's like, at the end of the day, you can't really keep it from the people, which is awesome. And like, it grows on almost every single continent except Antarctica, in the wild. So I mean, it's available for people, regardless of what happens. And, 1:01:36 and if people make farm when people make pharmaceutical drugs for it, I think 1:01:42 it's still going to be cheaper and healthier than any, like antidepressant or anything out there. And probably more effective. So at the end of the day, even if, you know, these big companies are, you know, creating monopolies and blah, blah, and creating these pharmaceutical drugs, is still better than the alternative. So all of that said, 1:02:04 I'd have my seatbelt strapped in, I'm ready for the ride, you know? 1:02:09 Yeah, it should be. It should be interesting to 1:02:13 try to stick with the varieties because like, I need someone I was like, oh, what psilocybin 1:02:20 is, that is the most common answer is like, oh, it's like really gentle and loving. But I'm like, what is it? How much is it? I get some of that. It's funny. Like, The Hobbit tat, or, you know, the wild turnip or, you know, like, obviously, the penis envy of the world. But sometimes, like, I have no clue what people are saying. And they often when you dig deeper, it's all convinces. But then it has like a funny name. At the end this experience, trying to keep up with the Yeah, the weird naming convention of sobriety from and when you asked you, but they don't even know what it is. Yeah, and I'm also excited for just more money getting into it, and then more science, you know, and just, yeah, we're only focused on psilocybin, psilocybin, little bit on Nora biosystem, biosystem, norsu, Wilson, all these different tryptamines. But there's so many compounds in there that I'm like, oh, what's it like my chemists by you know, biologists side scientists side is like, oh, like, what's in there? What's what's the best way to grow it as a cultivator, all this different stuff. And then also different combinations of compounds and stuff like that. I'm curious, you know, I'm curious for more money to get into it. So we can learn more about this organism, and just more people to consume it. 1:03:43 And people will consume it on many different terms, people will take it, day drinking, you know, and then other people will set up a ceremony and have a really intentional time with it. But I think at the end of the day, I've I've sat in meditation with like, the spirit of mushrooms, so to speak, and I've, I've like, asked, Hey, what do you think of this commercialization? And they're like, I got a pretty funny answer. In return. They're like, Hey, as long as it's getting in more people's bodies, like we know, we don't give a fuck. 1:04:16 So you know, there. Yeah. 1:04:20 We'll see how it goes. And hopefully it helps the whole human species be more symbiosis with nature and our true selves. Yeah, same. I think because how safe it is and how effective it is. I have no worries. That microdosing part worries me a lot. Like it's actually linked with mycelium people promoting it because when you take those mycelium products for promotional benefits, you don't really notice any benefits. You just hope you're getting benefits. So you're like, you know, it's 1:04:49 yeah, like, wishing something would happen. At the same time. I feel like they're also the biggest proponents of myco seeing where true microdosing is 1:05:00 Add some perception and you know, if something's happened, but you really hoping it's happening, it 1:05:06 actually transpired to something happening. But I'm personally like, where you're the very aggressive microdosing with psilocybin, especially how quickly those, those receptors in the brain 1:05:23 build tolerance and how those proposals are made. I think it makes more sense with other compounds, actually. 1:05:30 psilocybin Casselton, or bison, but yeah, that's, that's so interesting, how that microdosing movement has become so big and how the proponents of in the West particularly is like a hub of micro dosing, and how those two people who sell mycelium promote micro dosing in both cases. It's feels like Scientology. You don't notice anything, but you're told you're noticing something or it's 1:05:57 like, I get the inner city, which placebo works, and it's better than nothing. And then across the city elemental, at the same time, those protocols that are promoted, probably 1:06:11 the most aligned with the science we have today. And I'm just curious, I'm just funny, observing how it's the exact same people promoting it and and how, you know, in other countries, it's not really a thing. You know, in my experience, it's, it's an arrogant thing. This microdose Yeah. 1:06:31 But 1:06:32 yeah, and there's been four to five papers in the last three years that the results show, it's about the same as placebo, 1:06:43 micro dosing psilocybin, but you know, it's all Yeah, it's up in the air right now. I've, I've been in microdose, over the last 10 years, and I, I'm in the same kind of camp, as us. I'm, I'm skeptical of it now. And it's interesting, you know, I've, I've felt so many amazing benefits, but I'm also want to lean deeper into the science. And I hope that we have more studies that are many more participants, placebo, double blind, controlled, peer reviewed, etc. because 1:07:17 other people are interested in a tolerance part. 1:07:21 The interesting element here is 1:07:24 building targets. 1:07:27 To psilocybin, maybe we'll find out more as we go. So yeah, that's, that'll be interesting to observe. 1:07:36 Another area that I feel like is going to help so much in our world, but still the sciences is 1:07:45 evolving, let's say is the plastic problem with with fungi and micro remediation. And I know that is one of your big passions right now. 1:07:55 You want to? Yeah, where is it? Where are you hoping to help or do more research and yeah, it's really the third leg in my personal learning and hopefully, eventually contribution. It's like, obviously, like starting foraging, culinary mushrooms, and starting there. And then functional was a big focus of the last 15 years. And 1:08:19 you know, last seven, eight years more actively with psilocybin as the legislative environment has shifted. I think eventually now I'm like, trying to keep myself but also actively trying to do something good, mostly 1:08:33 funding and supporting on micro innovation, and particularly on the global plastic crisis, and it just bothers me so much out there is plastic, and pretty much all the solutions are BS and 1:08:46 plant based plastics are worse and more microplastics and just see 1:08:51 a massive, like, it's that gone. 1:08:55 Mostly things you can do in life are meaningless, but you should still treat them as like the effort. So I have been pretty active the last two years educate myself, helping to fund and invent ways how you can fungi to break down plastics, after probably a couple years from before publishing. 1:09:17 But it is a new field, it's really, you know, 20 years is when the first papers are out, and they're increasing papers, but five, 1:09:27 even 10 years is so short, but then and then and then amount of people talented researchers committed to it is still very cool. And the people we're doing the work on, likely you've never heard of, because it's an article talking about microwave radiation or the grassroots people doing these projects, but there are great people not that many, and it's early days, but psilocybin this the science is so promising. And if you look at it, obviously while not perfect and go 1:10:00 Have you seen how big of the problem is and motor depression and mental health issues with psilocybin? If you're not excited about the potential of 1:10:11 helping one way or the other break down plastic, you're pretty jaded. So I think, national data, I think, what I've seen both with the research bill, but also what I've seen others do, it's very excited, very promising. But it is like, internet in 1995, pretty early days. And it's sad how many talented people that required are not employed. But they have another day job. And it's kind of a hobby, yeah, or they're doing these. They're sucking academia in weird funded projects. So I would hope a lot of talented people who are personal passion will be employed in this area of microwave radiation more broadly, and I think more hours and money should go to it. And I'm trying to do small part in providing capital and talent to work on the massive problem with us tickets. But there's surely an issue. But it's so exciting of what could be so big, 1:11:22 you know, 1:11:24 increasingly bullish and excited about myco communication and seeing what how quickly fungi evolved particularly so like fungi that is not used to plastic that is available to break plastic and how quickly it learns and starts breaking it faster and faster. And how those inside Glen's get more targeted to get that attrition from plastic is kind of mind blowing, because it really happens within a month or two. And suddenly the fungi gets adapted, quite specifically to eating or breaking down plastic for grow. It's it's pretty, pretty mind blowing. 1:12:06 Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a reason it's one of the most 1:12:10 resilient organisms on the planet and able to survive in the most chaotic extreme environments is because yeah, it evolves really quickly. And, you know, it is funny that we develop plastic to be fungal resistant, but it's just a matter of time, you know, that. They'll Yeah, develop that. The enzymes to break it down. And 1:12:36 yeah, it is. I say this a lot too. With mushroom farming. It is one of the skeletons in the closet for a lot of mushroom farms. Unfortunately, we use a lot of polypropylene number five bags to grow mushrooms. And it's cool seeing that there's so many other mushroom cultivation techniques out there, that you can reuse containers, you don't have to use as much plastic or any plastic. And as we're growing the industry, I hope more and more farms develop it. And then also on the packaging side for consumer facing goods. We're not entirely there yet for compostable packaging, but we're getting there. And there's a few companies that are exciting the progress that they've made. But up to now it's it's this in between zone where either it is plant based, fully biodegradable, compostable, but 1:13:33 it's so permeable, that you can't put a food product or a dietary supplement in there. It would go moldy in like, you know, a week or something. And then the one that is shelf stable, it's, you know, has some plastic in there or Yeah, so we're at least we're going somewhere. And that's yeah, that's the exciting thing. There's more replacements for Styrofoam and leather and all these different things. So. 1:14:03 So what do you have? Could you like is a timeline for you? 1:14:08 As long as for Signetics has existed 1:14:12 in contact with these people. And it's always like next year, next year, next year, as like all it's done. There's always this like urban legend, somebody comes to us. It's like, why don't you use? It's also by the way difference between compostable and biodegradable. Yeah, for lack of a better word. Let's just use even the compostable packaging and someone comes to me, it's like, Oh, I know a friend of a friend who knows someone who has a compostable package. I'm like, Yeah, anything introduce me as many like 50 times. And then I talked to provide like foods. We're not there yet. You know? 1:14:45 It's maybe next year. I do hope that it doesn't. Progress has been made, I hope actually, on the workplace. We'll have those products out there and, and similar with the plastic and the fungi side. 1:15:00 We hope to accomplish something in two to three years. So 2024, hopefully and have like, because the problem is in that world, as you know, well from writing the book could be around it is its few, few issues besides talent. So one is obviously it's a new emerging field. Research funding is okay. On this big, but you need more people and talent, that's the bottleneck. But there's also a practical issue. A lot of the people who are biodegradation experts and under how to analyze that impact are only working with fungi and self aid, and then go sell beats find like, often get lap acclimated, and their base, and then the aplied, quite like you bring it out of the lab. 1:15:48 And you will try to bring it to nature and vice versa, there's often choose, and then the stuff that works. It's the enzymes, but that doesn't can't be applied form because the enzymes don't reproduce, you need a lot of them. So you could use them very targeted like a sniper rifle. But that doesn't solve the problem. The problem is like, literally mountains of plastic in landfills around the world. So like, I think that's the challenge there. It works in a laboratory, it works in certain settings, it works as an enzyme, how do you make a 3d printer so you can create enough biomass? And then also, 1:16:27 how do you bring it from the lab to real life? And I think that's the step that Clydeside, that, you know, people are either people or grassroots people. And those communities need to gather because the grassroots people can learn so much about from a more cell base, and then the grassroots people are massive cultivators can learn a lot from the last people and, and there's isn't a good bridge yet and finding people is really difficult. And I would love to find a way to employ people that are passionate about this and want to spend time on it. One way or the other. Yeah, I'm, I would, I would add one more camp, which is the industrial side. And because it is such a massive problem, like, if you google how much pollution is out there, it is mind boggling the amount of Superfund sites, even just if we're just talking about plastic, we have islands of plastic the size of Texas, multiple ones floating in our oceans. And that's just plastic that's not talking about all the other chemicals. So unfortunately, grassroots isn't going to cut it. You know, I mean, it's, it's amazing. It's cool to empower people on a home scale. But this isn't a home scale level of pollution. This is massive, massive amount. So, you know, industrial engineers on an incredible scale. Also, you know, 1:17:58 there's this mycologist Alan Rockefeller, and he's really funny. He always says this kind of analogy. He's like, Yeah, I mean, you could take a gun and shoot a Petri dish with cancer cell lines. And you could just say that you're pour bleach on it, and say that a gun is a great cancer treatment, or like bleach, but then if you put it in your body, it's like, no. So what you do on a petri plate or on it on a bench scale does not. You can't say that it's going to work in real life, you know, because they're radically different. And there's so many other factors. So 1:18:37 it's exciting that it's working on a bench scale, but just that next leap is huge. But it's so needed. And that's exciting. You know, and it should be for people to, to kind of get back to a world in which 1:18:53 Yeah, it used to be or at least to try to reverse some of the damage that that humans have done 1:19:07 what do you 1:19:10 Yeah, we've covered a lot I feel like any of these topics we we probably 1:19:15 could have gone down for a really long time. Any any final Any final thoughts here you want to share with anybody listening? For me personally, if you're interested in health and wellness, 1:19:29 new book about adaptogens including some adaptogenic fungi, how, 1:19:35 but if you're interested in micro remediation, you can message me on Instagram. I am taro tea. Oh, 1:19:43 let me know what what you've been working on. And we'd love to find more people that are like minded and interested in working in particularly with the plastic problem. 1:19:55 Oh, yeah. Cool. And definitely check out for SIG Matic and 1:20:00 I got a super rad team. And we have another episode if you're curious about the adaptogen book we have a we have an episode with Danielle and Taro. I don't know the publishing schedule that might go before this episode. Maybe after I think it's going to release beforehand so you can check out that episode and listen to that as well. 1:20:21 And yeah, if you're a listener, thanks for tuning in Truman in with us. If you have any, you know, definitely reach out if you have any guests or topics that you want us to dive deeper into. And leave a review tell your friends about it. If you want to support us, we don't have a Patreon or any way you can donate to the show. So we have mushroom revival we have our own mushroom gummies tinctures, capsules, powders, new new, fun stuff coming soon. And keep being in love with mushrooms and having inspiration about the world. So have a beautiful day. Much love and may the Force be with you Transcribed by https://otter.ai
