How Plant Fungicides are Affecting Humans with Marin T Brewer
Alisa Nappa
When we spray fungicides on plants, these fungi are adapting and becoming resistant to anti-fungals when they go and infect humans later down the line. We sit down with Marin T Brewer to talk about these developing super microorganisms and our race to come up with a solution to save humanity.
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TRANSCRIPT
Unknown Speaker 0:00
Alex,
Unknown Speaker 0:12
welcome, welcome. You are listening to the mushroom revival podcast. I'm your host, Alex Dorr, and we are absolutely obsessed with the wonderful, wacky world of mushrooms and fungi. We bring on guests and experts from all around the globe to geek out with us and go down this mysterious rabbit hole to try to figure out what the heck is going on in the mushroom fungal world. And today, we have a guest to talk about the connection between plant fungicides and human fungal infection, which is very interesting, all the different crossovers and niches that that fungi thrive in. So how you doing today? I'm good. I'm good. Where are you tuning in from? I'm in Athens Georgia at the University of Georgia. Yeah. And for people who don't know you and your work, what are you up to?
Unknown Speaker 1:06
So yeah, my name is Mary Brewer, and I'm a professor at the University of Georgia. I work in the Department of Plant Pathology, so we work mostly on fungi that cause plant diseases, since most plants do get diseases, and most of their diseases are actually caused by fungi. But this work we're doing most recently is a fungus that's associated with plants, and it causes a disease in humans, and the the reason why I'm working on it is because some of the
Unknown Speaker 1:37
ways that we reduce plant diseases using fungicides is affecting this fungus that decomposes plants, and just by chance, these fungicides are causing it to develop resistance to anti fungals that are used to treat the disease that it causes. So I've recently been working on this fungus as forgilus Femi goddess, because it's found in a lot of agricultural environments and is responding to treatments that we're using for these plant distances. I can't wait to dive in more into that. But to start out, how did you originally get into plant pathology and fungi, mycology in general? Yeah. So when I was an undergrad, I was at the University of Cincinnati, and I was doing research in the lab looking at the effects of root exudates, so the compounds that come out plant roots in the soil, and how those affected microbial communities. So bacteria, we focus mostly on bacteria in that lab. So when I graduated, I was looking for jobs working in a research lab, and I wanted to work with microbes associated with plants. So there was this job with the US Department of Agriculture, with their Agricultural Research Service, looking at the effects of different rotation crops on microbial communities and how those could improve
Unknown Speaker 3:01
kind of controlling diseases of potatoes. So this was in Maine, and so I took that job. And at first I thought I was going to be mostly focused on the bacteria, because that was the experience I had as an undergrad. But when I first saw all of the fungi that were growing out of the soil, I just immediately was I pretty much fell in love with fungi almost immediately, because there were so many different
Unknown Speaker 3:25
kind of shapes and colors and sizes of these fungal colonies that would grow on the petri dishes. And I was so interested in what we were doing for both plant pathology and soil microbiology that I started taking some classes while I was working at the University of Maine, and I like the plant pathology class so much that I started a master's degree at the University of Maine, and I also
Unknown Speaker 3:52
took a mycology class. It was called biology the fungi, with Dr Shawna Annis there, and I just that was it. I was done with everything else that wasn't related to fungi. I knew I wanted to work in fungi for the rest of my life, because there, there's the good, the bad, the ugly, but they're so diverse and they're so amazing, especially the ones I really like are the molds, and when you look at them under the microscope, just all their different spores and spore producing structures and their hyphae, I just I thought I'm really fascinating. So I've been working on fungi ever since. It's funny how people get hooked in mushrooms and fungi. It's like, yep. Now, never turning back.
Unknown Speaker 4:34
A lot of students are like that too. So I teach a few different classes on fungi here at the University of Georgia, and students are like, I had no idea how cool fungi were. They'll be so interested in fungi, they want to work in my lab, and then they end up going to grad school. So yeah, people, once they discover fungi, they they go all in a lot of the time. So this is really weird, because, you know, I've been interviewing people for four.
Unknown Speaker 5:00
Or five years every week, and this is the first time I'm hearing of a fungi that not only infects plants, but also humans at the same time. But two hours ago, I interviewed somebody else, and they studied marine fungi, and they were doing sampling in the Pacific Ocean, and they're studying, they found, you know, huge samplings of this, this fungi, G minor, that not only thrives in the ocean, but also is a plant parasite to apples, but also infects humans and that. And it's like two two interviews in one day. Is the first time I'm hearing about this, this phenomena where plant pathogens can also infect humans. Is it
Unknown Speaker 5:47
more prevalent than I realize there are? So that I know there are some fusarium fungi. They're molds that infect humans. They can infect turtles as well and some other animals, and they also infect plants and animals. This one that so Aspergillus. There are some Aspergillus. So Aspergillus flavis produces aflatoxin, and it infects plants and people. The one I specifically work on, I do work a little on Flavius, but Fumi, Goddess is the one we're currently working a lot on and it doesn't infect plants. It just decomposes dead. So it's plant associated, but it's not a plant pathogen. Got it is plant associated, and it infects humans, but it's not, it's not a plant pathogen, but some Aspergillus are so yeah, it's, it's not super common, but there are a few different there's some penicillin that can cause plant diseases and human diseases. So it's not it's not unheard of, but it is. It's kind of rare, but that they do both, yeah. So Aspergillus fumigatus is saprophytic fungi, so it decays,
Unknown Speaker 7:02
or it breaks down decaying organic matter that's already dead. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 7:08
so in the agricultural practice of spraying fungicides, is it just
Unknown Speaker 7:17
like a it
Unknown Speaker 7:20
they're not specifically trying to control Aspergillus. They're trying to control other plant pathogens, and that just is a byproduct. Exactly, yeah, with like Aspergillus flavors, sometimes they're specifically trying to control that fungus so that it's not producing toxins in people's foods. But with fuma goddess, it just happens to be out in the environment. So it's it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. We're breathing in spores of it every day.
Unknown Speaker 7:49
It's just problematic to people who are immunocompromised. But it's found in really high quantities, in decaying plant matter, especially compost. So it's prevalent in compost piles, mostly because it's thermo tolerate. It can grow at really high temperature. So in the middle that compost pile, when compost is doing its thing, and all the organic matter is being broken down by the microbes, and the temperature gets really hot in there, Aspergillus fumigatus thrives. So it thrives at high temperatures. It thrives breaking down organic matter. So compost is actually one of the hot spots for it. So it's found in the environment, on like plant debris or in agricultural environments. But where it's really in high numbers is in compost piles, and it's not entirely clear yet if it's the spraying of the fungicides on the crops themselves, or when those kind of crop residues with fungicides make their way to the compost pile. So it's not people are still trying to figure out where exactly the fungus is evolving resistance or where that occurred, but in the compost pile is where it's really abundant. So you get these compost piles with this super fungus that's adapting to become resilient to these fungicides. How does that fungi then infect immunocompromised people? Are they gardeners and farmers primarily? Is it just spores in the air? Are they people that are living by agricultural land, like, what? Or is it just everywhere? You know? Yeah. I mean, it is everywhere. There are studies being done by epidemiologists to try and kind of figure out where people are at greatest risk, and I don't think they've been able to pin that down exactly. Most of the research in this area has been done in the UK and in the Netherlands, so mostly a lot of it in Europe, because that's where they're finding.
Unknown Speaker 10:00
Most people in hospitals that have infections with this Aspergillus fumigatus. So the disease is called aspergillosis,
Unknown Speaker 10:10
and it can cause a whole range of different diseases. But the really problematic one is invasive aspergillosis, where it gets in the lungs and it can start growing throughout people's lungs, and these are people who are immunocompromised, so people that
Unknown Speaker 10:24
have like cystic fibrosis, people undergoing chemotherapy for cancer, even people with covid 19, have been found to be susceptible if they have a severe case of people with different lung disease are the ones that are most susceptible, and it's not entirely clear where they acquired it, but it is, like I mentioned, the spores we're breathing in spores of the fungus every day. It's just whether or not people breathe in spores of the resistant fungi. And that's where the problem really comes in, as if it's resistant to these fungicides. So even when people acquire infections where the fungus isn't resistant, it's pretty hard to treat, but if it's resistant, it's almost impossible to treat it, and it's the infections with the resistant fungi from people who are immunocompromised can be fatal.
Unknown Speaker 11:21
Interesting, most,
Unknown Speaker 11:25
um, most problems with fungi that I hear about are, you know, like black mold in your house, and people inhale the spores and they have mycotoxins, and, you know, a whole array of, you know, headaches and breathing problems and, uh,
Unknown Speaker 11:40
XYZ, lethargy that it's is it also pretty rare that fungi grow inside humans? You know, I've heard schizophren commune grows, you know, is like a couple rare cases in the soft palate of of an immunocompromised person's mouth and throat and lungs. But is it more common than
Unknown Speaker 12:01
that? Difference? Different species of fungi will grow inside of a human. It's it's actually pretty rare, and for the most part, the immune system that we have is very good at getting rid of most fungal infections. The the only one that's really kind of contagious among people and spread person to person, are all of the
Unknown Speaker 12:27
kind of like the dermatophytes. So the things that cause like ringworm and jock itch and Athlete's Foot, those are very common, and a lot of people will have one of those infections in their lifetime. But those are very minor, easy to treat. For the most part,
Unknown Speaker 12:43
it's these ones that actually invade people, and most of the time, the reason they get into people is because they're breathed in, or they're, like, impacted into people's skin, or they have a wound, and they get in somehow,
Unknown Speaker 12:58
yeah, and most of us might get a minor fungal infection, but it might feel like a cold or a flu, because your body fights it off. But people who are immunocompromised are the ones that are having trouble with these fungal infections, because then the fungus gets spread because their immune system isn't able to combat it, and it looks like these sorts of fungal infections are going to get more common. That's what's predicted. Because we have older populations now that are immunocompromised. We have a lot more people who can be treated for certain diseases that couldn't in the past. So a lot of more people are undergoing treatment for cancer, or people are getting organ transplants and they're on immunosuppressive drugs, or people have other
Unknown Speaker 13:48
autoimmune diseases, so they're on immunosuppressive drugs. And also people predict that fungi that are mostly found in tropical regions will be expanding more into temperate regions with climate change. So it does appear that these fungal diseases may become more common. That's at least what is predicted by most people who study these
Unknown Speaker 14:12
so yeah, it's it's rare to get a fatal fungal infection, but they are becoming more common, and part of it too is that people are just more aware, so physicians are more aware of these fungal diseases, so they're diagnosing them more and looking more for them as well.
Unknown Speaker 14:31
Yeah, I've, and I'm sure you've, you've heard this as well, but people theorizing that with rising temperatures from climate change.
Unknown Speaker 14:43
Fungi that can adapt to high temperatures, like you said with Aspergillus, fungi, Goddess that can survive in very high temperature compost.
Unknown Speaker 14:55
Yeah, it can survive in the human body, right? And I think.
Unknown Speaker 15:00
One of the theories that I heard that mammals were able to evolve so quickly, as opposed to reptiles, because of our higher body temperature, we're able to fight off fungal infections a lot more. And I've heard some researchers worry that with the rising temperatures from, you know, global warming, that these fungi will adapt to higher and higher temperatures, and we'll see more and more human fungal infections, and then also with them, adapting to our fungicides. It's just kind of a, I don't want to say a recipe for a disaster, because it is rare. It is, you know, immunocompromised people, but
Unknown Speaker 15:45
yeah, it is growing in popularity, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I have heard that too. A lot of what you were talking about, that
Unknown Speaker 15:55
with increasing temperatures, that fungi are going to be able to adapt to those temperatures and then be able to thrive in the human body. Yeah, Aspergillus fumigatus already thrives at like 37 or 98.5 human body temperature and
Unknown Speaker 16:14
but with yeah people who most people can, can fight it off again.
Unknown Speaker 16:20
But as more and more fungi can at least overcome that first barrier by just being able to grow inside the human body, I think you're right. There will be, there might be more issues in the future with fungal infections and and for people listening to kind of put it in perspective, I used to grow a ton of Cordyceps militaris, and that's extremely temperature finicky. And if we would go above 6970,
Unknown Speaker 16:46
degrees Fahrenheit, we would have crop failure. I mean, we would get, like, co infections of of different Myco parasites at higher temperatures, and we would lose our whole crop, you know. And that's not that hot, you know? And then, yeah, and then this fungi is thriving at 96 Fahrenheit.
Unknown Speaker 17:09
It says a lot. It just kind of puts it in perspective.
Unknown Speaker 17:13
So I'm, I'm curious, because
Unknown Speaker 17:17
I'm not entirely sure how commercial fungicides work both agriculturally but also pharmaceutically, and for humans,
Unknown Speaker 17:29
are they the same compounds? Is that? Why? Or is it the same mechanism of action? Is that how they're able to evolve to have resistance? How are they able to be resistant to both agricultural fungicides and also human fungicides? Yeah, so fungi in the human body are very difficult to kill, because I don't know how much people may know, but actually, the closest relatives to animals are fungi,
Unknown Speaker 18:07
and so we have a lot of the same kind of cellular processes, metabolic processes. So the there are only three major classes of anti fungals, and they target
Unknown Speaker 18:21
different parts of the fungi. So when you are trying to target bacteria and produce antibiotics, they're a lot easier to kill because they're so much different. But again, with fungi, they're so similar. So we only have these three classes of drugs,
Unknown Speaker 18:36
the azoles, the kind of candids and the polyenes. And the big one of interest here are the azoles. So the azoles work by targeting in the fungal cell wall, so the or the membrane that holds all the fungal cytoplasm intact. So in their membrane, instead of having cholesterol, they have a compound called ergosterol. And the azoles target ergosterol synthesis. And when people with a fungal infection take azol drugs, it targets the ergosterol synthesis, and then the fungal cell is no longer able to reproduce, but because it targets a compound so similar to cholesterol, it actually can have a negative effect on people. So a lot of these treatments are very there are a lot of side effects, but they do work fairly well in people who are infected with fungi that are sensitive to the compound, but these same easels are used not just in in pharmaceuticals that people take, but they're also used in agriculture. So it is the same. They're not the exact same compounds, but they're very similar compounds, and they do have the same mechanism of action. They target that same enzyme. There's an enzyme and.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
Involved in ergosterol synthesis that's targeted by an azole, and it's the same enzyme in the plant pathogenic fungi that's in these human pathogenic fungi. So when these azoles are sprayed out in an agricultural environment, they are sprayed onto the plant, and they're actually taken up by the plant, and they protect the plant from fungi that would infect the plant or that have already infected the plant. It can kill them. And they're actually really useful to protect plants, because they have this broad spectrum activity against a lot of different plant pathogenic fungi. The only problem is they they're very specific to this one enzyme, so fungi are able to evolve resistance very quickly. And plant pathogens can evolve resistance. But also any fungus that's in that environment, if it's going to survive in the presence of that fungicide, it has to evolve resistance. So the Aspergillus fumigatus out there in the compost pile that might have the fungicides are out on these plants, are decomposing organic matter in the soil beneath the plant. If they're going to survive, they're going to have to evolve resistance. So they're evolving resistance out in the environment or in the compost pile, and then when they get inhaled by someone who might be immunocompromised, they already have that resistance, and the azole anti fungal that the person would be given in a hospital won't work because the fungus is already resistant.
Unknown Speaker 21:36
That's so interesting. So I'm I'm have the rudimentary understanding, and I'm trying to wrap my head around ergosterol is a pretty powerful antioxidant, right?
Unknown Speaker 21:47
Um, I don't know if it's an antioxidant. It's it's in the cell membrane, and it does the same thing. So everyone thinks cholesterol is not a great thing, but it's essential for ourselves, so it helps with fluidity of the cell membrane, and it does the same thing in fungi. It just helps their membranes to be kind of fluid when they need to and to adjust and move. But I'm not sure about antioxidant that it could be, but I don't know much about that.
Unknown Speaker 22:21
Yeah, I thought,
Unknown Speaker 22:24
because it's pro vitamin d2 okay? And
Unknown Speaker 22:31
I yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, I've seen a lot of supplements
Unknown Speaker 22:39
kind of advertise that and as a beneficial thing for humans. And I'm just kind of curious,
Unknown Speaker 22:48
yeah, if it has a similar effect on fungi and humans, that this compound and I it's really interesting. This is the first time I've I knew that fungi made ergosterol, but I didn't know it was beneficial for the fungi. It's essential, like they have to have it
Unknown Speaker 23:05
and yeah, when it's targeted, what happens is, is when the azoles target the enzyme, it's called 14 alpha demethylase, or SIP 51 but when the compound binds to that enzyme, the fungi can no longer make ergosterol, and it has this kind of toxic intermediate that then goes into the cell membrane and that it can't survive without it. Yeah, I know chitin. So one of the other targets,
Unknown Speaker 23:36
with some antifungals, some target chitin, which is in the cell membrane, and I know chitin, sometimes people are allergic to chitin, but or that's in the cell wall, the fungal cell wall has chitin, but
Unknown Speaker 23:50
sometimes chitin is used as a
Unknown Speaker 23:55
I think it has some, some benefits to people. Sometimes, I think for like, joints,
Unknown Speaker 24:03
to help with joints, but sometimes people are allergic to chitin too. So, yeah, I didn't know about rigaster all, but I'll look into that more. I didn't know it had, like, medicinal benefits. Yeah, I'm just doing some some Google searches. It is an antioxidant, okay? It helps people's immune system,
Unknown Speaker 24:24
and has
Unknown Speaker 24:27
it's, it's a pro vitamin for
Unknown Speaker 24:31
d2 so when when exposed to to UV light, it turns into vitamin d2 and so helping our bones, and,
Unknown Speaker 24:43
yeah, I wonder if maybe
Unknown Speaker 24:47
it's like in the immune system. If, I
Unknown Speaker 24:50
mean, it's just possible that that might be one of the things that the immune system recognizes as like a fungus trying to invade and somehow that just like.
Unknown Speaker 25:00
Use the immune system that that's interesting? Yeah, I'll have to look into that more, because I always like sharing this sort of information with the students in my classes. So I teach on mycology class, but then also this really large lecture format class here at the University of Georgia, and the students just love all that kind of you know what, what the impact of fungi has been on human civilization, but what it means in, like, their everyday lives. So I always like learning new stuff like that to share with the students. Yes, I mean, it's interesting, because if it's beneficial for humans, especially for their immune system, it is funny that these anti fungals eliminate the ergosterol production kind of has, like a two part effect where, I mean, it's beneficial for, like, eliminating the fungal infection, but at the same time potentially limiting immune function as well, like, as a as a potential side effect. So it's really interesting, how,
Unknown Speaker 26:02
again, like you were saying how similar
Unknown Speaker 26:05
humans and fungi are in our processes, and that we're able to both use ergosterol for our benefit, you know, and how essential it is for
Unknown Speaker 26:18
the demise of this fungi as fungi? Yeah. So what is, you know? What is this solution moving forward? Has anyone come up with anything that seems like a good solution? It seems like making better anti fungals. I mean, we're at that seems like we're kind of in a race to we're always in a race against fungi and who, who can adapt quicker, you know, like, can we make new antifungals faster than fungi can adapt? Is that the race that we're in, or is there another solution, kind of, yeah, so that is one of the things. They are developing new antifungals.
Unknown Speaker 27:01
So there's two issues there, and make sure I get to both of these. One is,
Unknown Speaker 27:07
it's so expensive to develop these new antifungals for pharmaceutical companies that a lot of times they'd rather invest their efforts more into,
Unknown Speaker 27:20
I guess, ways to make money that usually involve, um, drugs for long enough,
Unknown Speaker 27:29
someone like them. This is so, yeah, you know they want. They'd rather invest in something that will be used by people forever. So, um, they're more interested in, you know, drugs for heart disease and things like that, because if you make people better, they won't buy more of your drugs Exactly. So some people are suggesting that, then the the government should be involved in funding this sort of research, because it is for the betterment of people, and it's just such a long process. So they develop these new drugs, and then some of them don't work well in the human body, or they're toxic, or they have other effects, so the amount that are tested and then that make it to market, or it's very slim.
Unknown Speaker 28:13
So that's the one issue. And then the second issue is that there is actually a new drug, and there are papers on it, so you can read about it, but it's called a Lera fib, and it has a new mechanism of action, and it works against Aspergillus, Buma goddess. And it's actually an FDA, I think, phase two trials.
Unknown Speaker 28:36
And even when people have infections with strains that are resistant to the azoles. This drug, alorapine will work.
Unknown Speaker 28:46
But the problem is, is that the chemical companies have also developed a fungicide with the same mechanism of action that's now being used in agriculture. So it's one of the suggestions, then, for this problem is when new drugs are developed that work really well for people to not have them be used as dual use compounds. So if they're really good in medical situations, that they should be reserved for human use and not used in for agricultural use, or maybe only using them selectively for agricultural use, so they're only used for like food crops, not for ornamentals. So that is one of the things. There was a
Unknown Speaker 29:36
big meeting that we had bringing together all sorts of people from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the US Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration, and scientists both from like plant pathology and medical mycology, and just kind of trying to figure out what we can do. And at least now all the different groups are talking. And so now there's a.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
Actually been, I can't remember what it's called, but like a paper put out, but the Environmental Protection Agency on coming up with policies of what to do when there are these fungicides where they're applying, because fungicides have to be approved by the EPA, so when chemical companies are applying for these fungicides to be used to make sure not just that they're not toxic to the environment, but that they don't have effects on microbes that then could be human pathogens. So now they are. There's at least these conversations are happening, so I think that'll help preserve drugs that need to be used for people, and then ones that need to be used on plants, because they are really important. These fungicides are important for plants in that it helps with food security. So fungi would reduce the yield of our crops, like 20% it's estimated if we didn't have these fungicides. So there's a lot less food that's available for people, plus some of these fungi produce toxins in our food, kind of like how you're talking about black mold. There's
Unknown Speaker 31:06
Aspergillus flavis produces aflatoxin, which is the most carcinogenic compound, and we can't have that in our food. So these fungicides help reduce that. So it's important that we have them for both uses. But maybe moving forward, to be more, I guess, selective, and how they're used would be, would be good. And people are also looking at
Unknown Speaker 31:25
if there's anything we can add maybe to compost, or anything that we can
Unknown Speaker 31:32
do, like maybe wetting the compost will prevent the spores from spreading. So people are looking into how the issue with Aspergillus fumigatus can be reduced, or how we could prevent more of these resistant strains from getting out into I mean, they're already out in the environment, but I guess limiting it so there aren't, aren't more.
Unknown Speaker 31:55
Um, two questions. One, so I had two guests on in the last, I think, six months, and talking about different plant pathogens, and one researcher was using genetic engineering to actually turn plant pathogens into A plant symbiote,
Unknown Speaker 32:19
and just changing the genes
Unknown Speaker 32:22
to just change, basically the the
Unknown Speaker 32:26
the mission of the organism, right? And, and the other researcher was doing something similar, but they were, I think I'm kind of drawing a blank on the at the actual phrase, but I think it's reverse RNA transcriptase, something like that, where making a RNA spray basically, which doesn't change. It's not genetic engineering, but it just gives the DNA different instructions. Or it basically,
Unknown Speaker 32:59
you're basically spraying RNA instructions on the organism to to, yeah. Is it like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then the plant recognizes when the fungus comes, it would chop it up because it's already seen its RNA kind of Yeah, or the the fungus. So you're, you're spraying fungal RNA on the on the plant. But when the when the fungi comes, the RNA goes into the fungi, and it basically just has different instructions. So
Unknown Speaker 33:31
it's like, oh, instead of me being a plant pathogen, I'm either gonna die off, I'm gonna, like, produce chitinase and just kill myself or whatever, where I'm going to become a plant symbiont for like, the next three months until the RE spraying occurs. But I'm just curious, like those two, both using RNA and DNA.
Unknown Speaker 33:54
Have you heard of any solutions in that realm before? Well, I guess. I mean if, if plants. I mean, one of the best ways to fight fungi, if you're a plant, is to be resistant. So a lot of work goes into plant breeding to develop plants that are resistant to fungi, quite often, though, the plants that are resistant,
Unknown Speaker 34:21
when you build up resistance in a plant, you sometimes lose some of the qualities that you want that plant, right? So it's not always the solution, but that's the best thing. You don't if you have plants that are resistant or at least tolerant to these fungi, you don't have to use as much fungicide or any and sometimes,
Unknown Speaker 34:41
yeah, GMO might be the solution for some of this. I don't know. I'm trying to think, I mean, there are plants out there that are resistant to
Unknown Speaker 34:54
they have genes in them that make them resistant to herbicide. So then more herbicide.
Unknown Speaker 35:00
Actually end up getting sprayed. But in this case, I think there have been some, like potato varieties that have been developed that are resistant to late blight, which is in a fungus, but they still spray fungicides for it. So there are some cases where these plants have been developed.
Unknown Speaker 35:17
So that would be potentially a solution. Another issue, too, is some of the chemical companies, for a while, were
Unknown Speaker 35:28
telling farmers that they had there was some research showing that spraying some fungicides could improve yields.
Unknown Speaker 35:38
But that research did it pan out. It. Further study showed that that wasn't exactly true, but they still try to market fungicides as a form of insurance, like they put up big billboards in some parts of the country saying, you know, make sure that you buy this certain fungicide and you spray your crops, because you never know when the disease is going to come. So a lot of the growers were spraying these kind of preventatively, or just to make sure that they did get certain diseases.
Unknown Speaker 36:11
So I think one of the things that would be good is aside from having plants that are already somewhat resistant to fungi, but to also minimize the use of these compounds so that we can have them for a longer period of time or use now, there's a lot of work using, it's called precision agriculture, and using AI to go out in the fields, using drones or different sorts of robotics, to identify areas that may be at risk for disease, or they can kind of identify color changes in the plants that we can't even see with our eyes, but these different like spectral imaging programs, can see it, and then they may be able to target the fungicide just to those parts of the plant, or to areas of the field that might be at risk without spraying as many fungicides. So I think that that's something that would be useful, kind of focusing more on those, like, kind of targeted management, instead of, like, spraying so much of these chemicals out in the environment that are having these non target effects that we don't, we don't want. Yeah, I think we should all just go into hyperbolic chambers with VR set. So then have robots grow all of our food and transfer them in feeding tubes
Unknown Speaker 37:27
solve all our problems. We're good.
Unknown Speaker 37:33
It is pretty great. I've seen videos of, yeah, those robots, and they have, like, these special lasers and, you know, different insect pathogens or whatever, and they just shoot lasers at them. And
Unknown Speaker 37:48
wild like, yeah, they burn weeds too. I see, yeah, totally, no, it's, it's insane.
Unknown Speaker 37:54
So I have a question. It seems like you're kind of in the best of both fields for funding. It seems like, you know, I get this question all the time of, hey, I'm starting up College. I'm looking to study mycology, like, what university can I go in? And it's pretty slim pickings, unless you are studying plant pathology. And pretty much every single person I've talked to who've who's taken a course on mycology. It's entirely plant pathology. It's, it's like pretty it seems pretty well funded. And then the other field,
Unknown Speaker 38:34
you know, medical mycology, for pharmaceutical companies. Those fields, correct me, if I'm wrong, it seems like the most lucrative in terms of finances and getting funding, both from the governments and private
Unknown Speaker 38:49
has that been your experience? Is it pretty easy for you to, like, get government grants and funding and things like that? Yeah, yeah. When I when I first became interested in fungi. After I got my master's degree, I remember talking to my master's advisor, who was a plant pathologist, and about different grad schools I was interested in going to, and he heavily recommended that I go for my PhD to a program that focused on plant pathology, even if I was going to study mycology, because there were much more disease or much more job opportunities, which there do seem to be, because, like I mentioned, most plant diseases are caused by fungi.
Unknown Speaker 39:32
So yeah, there is more funding, it seems to be for for plant pathogenic fungi, and trying to figure out how to solve problems with them and for medical fungi and trying to understand them than there is for like fungal ecology or studying mycorrhizal
Unknown Speaker 39:54
there is some money now too with like fungi and
Unknown Speaker 39:59
but.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
It's for industry mostly, but fungi,
Unknown Speaker 40:04
kind of biotechnology using fungi to make different food products, and fungi and food that's kind of a growing area now too. But yeah, there is a decent amount even people at the so in plant pathology, it seems like there's a lot less funding than there is for medical mycology. But even the medical mycologists complain that they hardly get any money compared to like the virologists or the bacteriologists. So yeah, someone's always got it. But yeah, for mycology funding, it's been pretty good.
Unknown Speaker 40:37
Where I am in Georgia, we have a lot of different crops, so there's always some new disease that's emerging, either it's been introduced or something's jumped from another host. So trying to figure out what the latest disease problem is and how we can control it is a lot of the plant pathology side of stuff that I do. So there's always been a lot of funding from different commodity groups for the US Department of Agriculture to kind of understand these different diseases. And I work a lot on
Unknown Speaker 41:07
diseases of cucurbits, mostly focusing on watermelon as well, and worked on cotton diseases. So there is money there, but yeah, there is also money to understand these
Unknown Speaker 41:18
medical fungi. And most of the funding
Unknown Speaker 41:22
either comes from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention or for the US Department of Agriculture for that as well. So there has been a good amount of funding, and I have been able to fund the research that we do in the lab, mostly with the federal funding, but from some of the commodity groups that kind of represent these different crops as well. What would you say is the hardest part of your research? And it could, could be, you know, a single day that maybe all your research got destroyed. Or, you know, day to day problems of,
Unknown Speaker 41:56
seems like you have a pretty Sisyphean task of trying to, trying to beat fungi at their evolutionary
Unknown Speaker 42:05
pace, of how fast they they can evolve. Yeah, what would you say is the hardest part? I guess, just time, having enough time to do everything, because I I teach, and then running the lab is a lot, as far as you know, making sure we're kind of doing everything we need to do, and getting the research done. And I have a lot of grad students and postdocs and undergrads that work in the lab, but there's only so much time. So a lot of times I wish I could, like, clone myself so I can do I can get everything done. So that's really the hardest part, is the time. But, yeah, it is as far as, like, students, I know you'd mentioned telling, you know what students ask about different programs
Unknown Speaker 42:50
at the University of Georgia, we do have a lot of fungal researchers here. So this is one of the, kind of the biggest areas where there are a lot of people researching fungi, and we have several professors doing research on medical fungi, plant pathogenic fungi. There are people doing research on fungal ecology. So we have this group called UGA fungal group. And during the semester, when classes are in session, we meet every Friday, and so different graduate students, or even undergrads
Unknown Speaker 43:24
postdocs, will present on their research. So it's this really synergistic group where we get ideas from each other, and that's actually how this research came to be. One of my graduate students was presenting his work on
Unknown Speaker 43:37
kind of different species of this one fungus evolving resistance differently than other species to azoles being applied to watermelons. And my current collaborator, Michelle mamany, who's an Aspergillus biologist, was like, Wait, there's this huge issue with azo resistance, with Aspergillus and and clinical environments. And that's when we began our collaboration and started all this work that we do on Aspergillus, femoga, Goddess and agricultural environment. So UGA is a really good place to be if you're interested in fungi, for sure.
Unknown Speaker 44:10
Yeah, thank you for the shout out. We get that question a lot of different universities that specialize in mycology. So yeah, UGA is one university. Yeah, that's a good, good resource to have
Unknown Speaker 44:24
kind of a side change of it that that must be a lot of pressure being,
Unknown Speaker 44:29
you know,
Unknown Speaker 44:31
taking care of these students and kind of stewarding their futures, and knowing
Unknown Speaker 44:39
in a lot of ways like their future is kind of in your hands for at least, you know, X amount of years. And
Unknown Speaker 44:46
I would, I would, that would be a lot of pressure for me to be in your position and like, to have an off day and feel it, feeling like, guilty that I'm like, letting my students down, or like, or if I'm overwhelmed and like, I, you know.
Unknown Speaker 45:00
A student needed something, and I'm just at capacity, feeling like, I'm like, Oh man, you're paying so much money to go here. And I'm like, at capacity, I want to help you. I want to like, is that a kind of common feeling that you feel, or professors in general, of just kind of,
Unknown Speaker 45:19
maybe a bit of self sacrifice for your students, and kind of that, that pressure of wanting to be your best for
Unknown Speaker 45:27
your kids, basically, I mean, yeah, your kids, yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, I always want to do I don't know if everyone thinks this way, but I think a lot of people want to do what's best for the students, see, the undergrads, a lot of them,
Unknown Speaker 45:44
when I meet with them, it's more ones that are interested in going to school for mycology. So I try to figure out, well, what kind of career they want, or what they want to do to try and help guide them. The graduate students, all of the ones in our department, actually, they don't have to pay for school, so their tuition,
Unknown Speaker 46:04
if they get into the Department of Plant Pathology, their tuition is covered. So a lot of graduate students in biology or in the sciences, they don't have to pay tuition, and they actually get assistantships. Now it's not tons of money, but it's enough to help pay for their housing and to pay for food, and maybe a little bit left over. So they are on assistantships, and they do get paid because they are doing a ton of research in the lab. And they're actually the students and the post docs in the lab. The graduate students, are the ones that are actually writing the papers and generating all the data.
Unknown Speaker 46:41
So it's good that they, they are paid and they get that recognition, but it is that's like my job then is to make sure that I continue to bring in research funding so that they can continue working in the lab, and so that I can continue to recruit students and support students and then postdocs, who then it's important to help them find jobs too. So I always make sure that students, when they're getting close to finishing that they've kind of figured out what the next step is, and even from the beginning, I figure out where kind of what kind of career path they want. So if they do want to go into industry to make sure that they're learning the skills they need for those sorts of jobs, or if they do want to go into academia at an institution where there's a lot of teaching that they get experience teaching here while they're students. So yeah, it is, it is a lot to juggle all of it, and at one point, I think I realized what my limits were, because I did feel that pressure. I felt like there were too many students. And there was a lot of, you know, you have to read their theses and dissertations, and then all of the undergrad students and teaching, and it just was like, Okay, now I know I can only have so many graduate students at one time, because this is, you know, about my limit.
Unknown Speaker 47:57
But yeah, you don't want to fail your students. So I always make sure that that they are kind of the the top focus making sure that they're getting what they need, and that they go into good, good jobs when they finish. And so far, they all have that a lot of them are either working in labs, or they're running their own labs,
Unknown Speaker 48:16
or they're working for industry. So yeah, a lot of them go into jobs either
Unknown Speaker 48:22
kind of biotech type positions, or they're working at other universities, teaching and doing research.
Unknown Speaker 48:29
So say the USDA, CDC, and
Unknown Speaker 48:36
your university came up to you and they're like, We gotta crack this problem. Here's a blank check from from all three of us, and you have unlimited resources, equipment, postdoc, assistance, helping you out with whatever. What
Unknown Speaker 48:51
would you do and what?
Unknown Speaker 48:55
Yeah, that's a good question. I would.
Unknown Speaker 49:01
I think it would be
Unknown Speaker 49:05
good to try and come up with first ways, because these azoles are so effective and they have made it through FDA, they've been used for a long time. Figure out ways to kind of mitigate this problem,
Unknown Speaker 49:24
kind of focus on where the resistance is actually developing, where these we know, there's hot spots. So like flower production. I haven't even talked much about flowers, but flower ball production compost, that's where we find a lot of these resistant fungi. And is it just because there's so more, so much more of the fungus there that we find more resistant fungi there? But if there's a way that we can kind of figure out why there's so much there, why so much resistant fungi is there, and
Unknown Speaker 49:55
kind of suppress it somehow, or figure out where people are getting exposed.
Unknown Speaker 50:00
I think that would be really good as well, so that we can prevent more people from getting infected, and then use these drugs effectively, so that if people are infected, they're not infected by resistant strains as much as possible.
Unknown Speaker 50:15
And also now, with this new drug that I mentioned, Alora FEM,
Unknown Speaker 50:20
there's a lot of monitoring that we would like to do. So monitor the environment where this fungicide is being sprayed to see if and when resistance develops, how and where, so that, again, we can mitigate the effects, so that this Lera FEM, once it's approved for use, if it gets to that point that it can remain effective for as long as possible, and then the fungicides can still be used, but in a way that it won't lead to as much resistance development. So that's, I mean, that's really where we're actually going right now, with a lot of funding, is just increased surveillance, because they have done a lot of surveillance in the in Europe, especially like I mentioned, in the UK and in the Netherlands, but in the US, they haven't done as much environmental surveillance, because resistance doesn't seem to be as much of a problem. But we're at this perfect point right now where we could, we don't have as much of a problem, so we could prevent it from becoming one more. So I think, yeah, just keeping an eye on where resistance is developing, and trying to understand that so we could kind of prevent it as much as possible. That's where I put all of the efforts into that. And what would you say is the highlight or the most rewarding aspect of your work? Working with the students, all the grad students and postdocs that I've worked with have been amazing, and just seeing them succeed so get seeing students get awards for all the hard work they've done, or seeing students graduate is always really exciting. Seeing students go into
Unknown Speaker 51:55
careers that are going the direction that they wanted. It's very that's very rewarding.
Unknown Speaker 52:02
That's awesome. Yeah, it must be a really incredible feeling, you know, I don't have any kids myself, but I hear
Unknown Speaker 52:10
just how proud parents feel with their own kids, you know, doing accomplishments and things like that, you know. And the closest thing that I can think of like I have a dog, or have employees or, you know, or even my friends and loved ones, like when I love, when watching them succeed and you know, but to have, you know, students come in every year, then watch them, you know, 10 years from now and then, and to follow up on their life and to see them follow their dreams and do it. You know it, it must be just an incredible feeling. And that's that's awesome. Must be super rewarding. Yeah, it's great. So if people wanted to learn more about plant, human fungal pathogens, about Aspergillus fumigatus, about
Unknown Speaker 53:00
your work, specifically, where any universities that more universities that you can recommend, any books, courses, videos, papers, anything. Yeah, there's,
Unknown Speaker 53:15
there was a workshop held by the National Academies for sciences, engineering and medicine, and they have some videos up from that, I believe, on their website. So it's nasam N, A, S, E, M, and I think if you kind of just look up, like food fungi, Aspergillus, anti fungi, all that kind of stuff,
Unknown Speaker 53:41
you should be able to get to that, that workshop website. So there's a lot of great information there. I also have a website.
Unknown Speaker 53:51
I have a lab website. So if you just Google Maren Brewer and University of Georgia, you can get to that. So link to that is information about my courses and the research and the people in the lab, and also all of our publications are there too, if people are interested in going back to that. But we also have some kind of, like, related news stories and things are there.
Unknown Speaker 54:18
Yeah, the UGA fungal group is a good resource for people are interested in mycology in general, and like other people doing research at UGA, but there's a lot of university Oh, the CDC has an awesome website, actually, for fungal diseases. Their Mycotic diseases branch has all sorts of resources for people who are interested in medical mycology and just finding out kind of more background about different diseases and risks and the fungi involved and
Unknown Speaker 54:46
treatment they have. They have a great website, and yeah, other universities that are really strong in mycology.
Unknown Speaker 54:56
There are a lot out there, but Georgia is definitely.
Unknown Speaker 55:00
Definitely, I think the best, so
Unknown Speaker 55:03
very unbiased opinion.
Unknown Speaker 55:06
But yeah, there are, there are several. And I'm actually, I could give a plug for my society too. I'm currently the vice president for the Mycological Society of America. So that's a good what resources? Awesome? Yeah, yeah. So I'll be president in two years. Nice. That's awesome. Yeah, that website has a lot of resources for people interested in mycology, and so there's a job board there, and there's also
Unknown Speaker 55:31
information about our meetings, and that's where you can network with people a lot. And they have a lot of programs for undergrads to recruit undergrads from underrepresented groups in particular, but all undergrads can apply for opportunities that come to the meeting, like all expenses paid. So, yeah, definitely check out MSA. That's a great group for people interested in fungi Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for all your resources. I mean, we get that class of questions all the time, of people,
Unknown Speaker 56:02
yeah, like wanting groups, wanting
Unknown Speaker 56:05
career paths, wanting universities, just like any resources, because sometimes learning about mushrooms and fungi is a is a bit difficult. Yeah, some, some niches are, you know, have a lot more resources out there than others. You know, the the gentleman I was just talking to a couple hours ago, I was telling you about the marine biologist, you know, he's like, yeah, there's, there's no resources out there for marine mycology at all. You know, this is big empty void. And you know, the more people collaborating, like in groups like MSA and coming together to make resources and to educate like yourself. And
Unknown Speaker 56:47
the more the merrier. You know, it's it's all up to us to make this mycelium network. So, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, it's a fungi. Unfortunately, they're like the Forgotten kingdom, but I think they are having a revival right now. So it's great that people are interested. And yeah, we want to keep people interested and let them know where they can come and become of the part of the network. Like you said, yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for coming on, and thank you for everyone for tuning in and shrooming in to another episode of the mushroom revival podcast.
Unknown Speaker 57:20
If you love the show and you had a good time, leave a review. It goes a long way. If you want to support the show financially, we don't have a Patreon or any way that you can directly donate, but we do have a mother brand mushroom revival that we have a whole line of organic, functional mushroom products from capsules, gummies, powders, tinctures, and we have a special VIP coupon code just for listeners of the podcast. And that coupon code is pod treat for a surprise discount code
Unknown Speaker 57:51
if you don't want to spend any money, totally fine.
Unknown Speaker 57:54
We have a giveaway going on just for listeners, and we pick a winner once a month, you can win some free mushroom goodies. We also have a ton of free resources on our website, from blog posts to free ebooks that you can download all things mycology, mushrooms in general. And also, we have my newest book, The Little Book of mushrooms, on there as well and or support your local, small bookstore we're in.
Unknown Speaker 58:26
The book is in bookstores all across the US and yeah, and keep telling people about mushrooms and fungi. Keep getting people hyped up, and keep spreading the the mycelium network. So as always, thank you much love and may the spores Be With You. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
