Psilocybin for Weight Loss

Transcribed by https://otter.ai ** Subject to error

Alex 0:00 You're listening to the mushroom revival podcast. Lera 0:03 Today on the mushroom revival podcast we are discussing psilocybin and how it can be deeply supportive for a healthy habits regime, particularly for weight loss. We are joined by Trevor Miller, who is on the board of directors for maps the multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies, and has been advocating for psychedelic therapies for years. Trevor is now on the advisory board for neon mind bio sciences, a Canadian company who is involved in some really cutting edge research on the topic of psilocybin and weight loss. And neon mind really believes that lives change when minds change. And that is how psilocybin really comes into play. Alex 1:02 Listeners, if you like the show, and you want to keep this content coming your support or make or break it, you can easily support us by reading and reviewing, and even more so by visiting our website and using this surprise coupon code pod treat for a surprise discount off of our decadent functional mushroom products. Now, back to the show. Trevor 1:26 I am Trevor Miller and I am the chief psychedelic officer with neon mind bio sciences. And the way I came into working with psychedelics professionally, was through my work with Ibogaine, and in about 2001. After 911 I was very distraught with the state of the world as a young man and kind of looking for a way to give back and turn my attention to my new hometown at the time of Vancouver, British Columbia and just started looking at different ways that I could help there's a part of the downtown core here in Vancouver that is known correctly as the poorest postal code in Canada. And I just started looking at different ways to help which turned into essentially about a 10 year networking and research project. And in 2009, the plant medicine Ibogaine came on my radar as a way to potentially help. And in 2012 I met the gentleman who had apprenticed with people in Mexico and knew how to work with Ibogaine. And for those that don't know, it Boga is a shrub that comes from Africa. It's been used ceremonially for centuries. And in the early 1960s, it was discovered that it has very powerful anti addictive properties. So it's very effective at people, helping people overcome opioid use disorder. And in 2012, as I said, I met my business partner, we started our business Liberty route therapy limited, and I was able to legally work with Ibogaine in Canada for about five years from 2012 through until 2017, it was registered as a natural health product. And then in 2017, Health Canada rescheduled it so I haven't been able to legally work with it since but we treated about 200 people in that time, within medicalized context, mostly for opioid use disorder. And through that work, I made a lot of inroads with the psychedelic community in Vancouver and beyond. And I was invited to join the board of directors for maps Canada, I'm sure most of your listeners know the multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies, the little Canadian branch here, I served as chair of the board for pretty much the full three years that I was there. And through that, we also decided to start the Canadian psychedelic Association. And that's been around for about two years now. And that's doing a lot of advocacy towards accessibility. We're working towards getting psychedelic assisted psychotherapy included in part of the discussion around the medical assistance and dying legislation that Canada has here. And through all that work, I met Penny white, the former CEO of neon mind. And since I've started we've brought in very another accomplished CEO, Rob Tessa Rolo, Penny and I met years ago, she's still Chair of neon mind, but we met and she kind of told me about what neon mind was up to. And I asked to speak to some of the doctors that were involved to get a clear idea of myself. And she was looking at possibly bringing me on board as an advisor. And through that conversation, I said, you know, perhaps there's a space for me as an Executive here and maybe you can make me chief psychedelic officer something. She said, that's actually a great idea. How can we make that happen? So, as of January 6 of 2021, I came on board with neon mind as chief psychedelic officer. And that brings us to today pretty much. Alex 5:21 What is the day to day like for a chief psychedelic officer? Trevor 5:25 Good question. Maybe a century? Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, maybe sounds more exciting that it is. But actually, it's pretty cool. I, we've got an amazing team at neon mind, we've got our CEO who is very familiar with drug development. We've got Dr. Laird Birmingham, who works through UBC, and he's an expert in obesity, which is the direction neon mind is taking with its research in treating obesity. We've got a lots of incredible medical advisors, including some representatives, representatives from Johns Hopkins, we've got an incredible operations team. But on the direct me on mine team itself, there's not a lot of people who understand all that much. And they're learning more every day, but around the psychedelic context itself. So having kind of sat in on a couple of couple 100, psychedelic sessions, myself, and being very plugged into the community and have access to an incredible network, I'm able to really show up to all the meetings around just about everything with neon mind, and I'm able to kind of bring some insight around psychedelics to all the conversations, you know, things that people who are familiar with the psychedelic world might take for granted at this point, but things like set and setting and dosage and just the short answer is I bring the psychedelic context to all the conversations within the mind. Lera 7:01 So I have an kind of an insider question. Since you're so involved with the institutionalizing of psychedelics? Do you find that most or all people have experienced personal experience with psychedelics? Or like what what is the proportion you would say of people who have empirical experience using these substances versus those who are just, you know, in it for the entrepreneurship or something more business oriented? Like within the the industry itself? Yeah, both that and like maybe a neon mind? I'm Trevor 7:35 yeah, I noticed that. Most people do have some type of psychedelic experience. Some people within the corporate environment still reserve their right to not directly comment upon that. I think that's, Alex 7:51 I didn't inhale. Trevor 7:55 They like, I think a lot of them, like having me on the team was very open about a lot of his experiences. And thankfully, I've been able to do a lot of that within the legal context as well. But yeah, some people don't comment. But I know a lot of people have experiences, even if it's maybe not within the therapeutic or ceremonial context. But maybe back in the college days, at least, they've got a little familiar familiarity with it, as it were. But I think, you know, I'm, I'm a huge proponent of people experiencing these substances. People might not feel that they're ill and may not need something like that, I think in this this intense world that we live in with the trauma that comes from just living in a society like this. Whether you think you're ill or not. I'd like to discuss that deeper on an individual level with people. But even to make the world better. I think these substances are incredibly powerful. And I think if you're going to get the get into, I just thought of this metaphor recently, I think anybody that gets into this space, who has not had, you know, gone in for the transformative, whether it's ceremonial or therapeutic, or just like I say, making the well better kind of experience, it's almost like you're a magic wand salesman, who has never tried casting a spell the magic wand that you're trying to sell. It's, uh, you know, it's, you might as well yeah, you might as well experienced the magic and there is a certain degree of magic and experiences like this as I'm sure you guys are aware. Alex 9:49 Yeah, I wouldn't be sitting here if there wasn't. Yeah, right. So we've covered quite a bit on you know, suicide and and mental health and the Exciting emergence of this in institutions and you know, turning these into products and seeing them being roped into bureaucracy and policy, and it's exciting and needed. But neon mind, what you guys do that really sticks out is this application of using psilocybin to support people who are wanting to lose weight, you know, or or cut the habit of overeating from some kind of trauma response. I'm curious if you can talk about why neon mind ever chose to focus on this because Alex and I are relatively into this space, nor paying attention. And this is the first time I'd heard of this application, which is great. You know, it's innovative, and it's new, but what catalyze the idea. And yeah, what have you seen so far in your research? Trevor 10:48 Mm hmm. So I referenced Penny white already, she's now the chair and former CEO of neon mind. And I think she deserves most of the credit, she was looking at different ways to be involved in this space, and kind of just doing a lot of brainstorming a lot of soul searching. And looking at it from a way that would make neon mind unique. And, you know, your reaction was very similar to my reaction when I first heard about neon mind, and its its aim towards working on obesity and weight management, I was like, kind of like, Oh, you know, and it didn't land with me right away, to be honest. But that's, that kind of proves that it's a novel idea, your reaction, my reaction. And there is something to be said, when you're working towards trying to commercialize something, to have a novel idea. So there are preliminary there, there are patent applications that have been put in, because this is a potentially novel idea. And I'm, I'm, you know, a little bit weary of the patent land grab that, that we seem to be seeing overall within the psychedelic space from a lot of players. But if you actually have a unique idea, that's what patents are there for. So we've moved in that direction. And who knows if the patent application will be successful overall, you know, somebody else might have the same AI novel idea at the same time and filed some applications. But we would, we don't know until some time passes. But whether or not this idea is patentable, we're still moving in a direction that we don't really see any other corporations within this space moving towards everybody's focused on kind of very mental health specific avenues. And that's fine. And we think this ties to that in a certain way. And, yeah, at the same time, we've kind of cut out our own space, and there's whether or not patents, you know, come through there's there's a certain advantage to being first to market with a new idea. And, yeah, we think there's, we think there's a lot a great potential in some of the preliminary findings that we're seeing in preclinical trials, as an example, is kind of confirming that we might be onto something here. Alex 13:25 We've talked to people about depression, anxiety, and even you know, getting over addiction to cigarettes to alcohol, all sorts of things. How does this particularly work? Is it kind of the same, I guess, idea of rewiring the brain and helping to get at the root cause of, you know, these, these trauma responses of overeating, which psilocybin is so good at shaking you up and looking at life in different perspectives and help rewiring the brain, etc. So do you have enough research that you can talk about how exactly this work? Trevor 14:08 Well, I think I'll go into a bit of the research in a second, but I think there is a lot of kind of hypothesizing here as well. And it goes back to some of those indications that you already mentioned. And I think, in speaking of, I look at these substances as real powerful pattern interrupters. If you have a pattern in your life, that you feel is holding you back yet you're having a hard time overcome it, overcoming it, then, these substances seem to be incredibly good at helping you kind of get out of that rut, as it were. And you know, in my, my experience with Ibogaine, helping people overcome heroin addiction, my limited experience sitting with people with silicided as well It's, it's really incredible what you can do when you take a very specific intent and take that specific intent into your psychedelic journey, and gain incredible insight and kind of a leg up on those patterns that you would like to overcome. So, with with obesity and weight management, you know, for, for being, you know, maybe somewhat trite, if we look at every single Diet book in the bookstore, they all basically say, eat less and exercise more. So it's not, you know, that's kind of the go to how am I going to lose weight? Well, you need to eat less than you need to exercise more, as we know, that is way easier said than done. So if we can take a set of prescriptive behaviors, in simplest terms, eat less exercise more, really look at, you know, what are the behaviors that we are trying to get rid of the anchors that we're trying to drop? And what direction? Are we aiming to move into instead, with a bunch of therapeutic support? That should come with any form of psychedelic psychotherapy, and then you go into a psilocybin journey? I'm pretty confident you're going to get some incredible outcomes. And that's what neon mind is banking on the preclinical trials that I mentioned, we're working in conjunction with the University of British Columbia, a team there. And there has been some animal studies which, you know, as I've got issues with some forms of animal studies, for sure, but this one, you know, I think if if you need to do an animal study, and you really do if you're going to be developing a pharmaceutical, prod product, or a prescription product, I think the rats in this study fared pretty well, which is basically, these rats were allowed to eat a very high calorie diet in speaking to the, the researcher, they basically fed it as much Nutella, these rats as much Nutella if, as they wanted. And there was a control group and like a rat. Yeah, exactly. This is basically over over the course of several days. And there's a control group. And there were two other groups one had a large dose of psilocybin, and one had a smaller aka microdose lever level of suicide and, and both the groups of rats who receive psilocybin ended up eating less than the control group. So that's the first preclinical study there. They're there, the next preclinical study is underway. And it was slightly delayed because of COVID. But yeah, I'm looking forward to these these findings, which I think are super interesting. And then, as somebody who's experienced mushrooms, you know, for one, with the microdosing Avenue, there is the five ht to see receptor, I believe, is control is effects appetite. So to do micro dosing, which is not the first trial that we're working on when we're looking at a macro dosing protocol first, but to do something like a macro dosing protocol, where we go in, as we discussed already, with the set of prescriptive behaviors, we're moving towards, hopefully the silicides and can help somebody gain some insight into how they want to change. And then maybe one day in the future, and this will be well down the road, as far as neon mind is concerned, but to follow it up with a micro dosing protocol, which in and of itself, may help to curb appetite. Alex 19:04 You know, it's funny, that evolution of the molecule psilocybin First of all, I mean, the theory was, it originated, fungi evolved the ability to produce this molecule to ward off insects, and particularly their, their appetites. So when, when fungi and insects were competing against, you know, wood and poop, other organic matter, you know, they had to find different ways to, you know, elbow each other off the food, and one of the ways was, was fungi producing psilocybin, which in a lot of insects actually works as an appetite suppressant. So the termites or whatever it is, they completely lose their appetite for the Word and fungi can take over the buffet of organic matter and kind of went out. So it's, it's really interesting to see it come kind of full circle. And I wonder, you know how much of it is an actual chemical appetite suppressant versus what we were talking about before, on more of a macro dose of, of, you know, the effects lasting much longer of seeing this habit of, you know, yes, this might be a short term appetite suppressant. But at the same time, I see that I have, based on my trauma, how I deal with my trauma is I, Benji, you know, and whether I whether that is leads to obesity or bulimia or whatever. That's unhealthy for me. And therefore, in the psilocybin session, I want to change up these patterns. So two different kind of interesting paths. And I'm very curious to see the research on on how this progresses. Yeah, beginnings as well, with insects. It's just comes full circle. I love that. Yeah, I've heard that before. But I never put that in my quiver when talking about neon mind, but that just makes total sense as well. It's, yeah, it is interesting to see it come full circle. Absolutely. And people are interested I was, I'm kicking myself, I was just on a podcast like a few weeks ago, and I didn't connect, I knew we were bringing you on our show. And I just the whole podcast, this whole podcast that I went on was called eating enlightenment. And it was all about binge eating, emotional eating and ways that to kind of shine enlightenment on that whole process and ways for people if they want to get better, or, you know, interrupt those habits they want to at and he was very curious about psilocybin. And, you know, was there much research on this? And at the time, a couple weeks ago, I was like, you know, I don't know but it makes sense. There's so much research on on you know, all these other types of addictions I don't see why not. And he was super super excited. So I'm, I got to send him an email after this to introduce you to and and show him your your guyses research and I think this will be so important for so many people. Trevor 22:31 I think it's a few things about what you mentioned there I think for one Yes, like the food's an interesting one like in working with Ibogaine and people who are opiates and want to overcome that, you know, whether or not you've been successful in treating someone, they know whether or not it was a success, either you using heroin still or not. But I've worked with people with eating disorders for with Ibogaine, as well. And, you know, stepping into this world with neon mind, and you don't quite get that gift with food, right? Like you still need to eat every day, it's everywhere, it is ubiquitous, like if you stop eating entirely, you've got a whole new problem, right? So it's, um, it's a really fine line, it's been fascinating for me to, to come into this world and think about all the nuance around this. And then on the, on another hand, when we're talking about treating somebody for weight management of some point at, you know, some kind, we've got a really neat objective measure, like somebody steps on the scale after six months or a year, and they either lost weight, or they didn't. So it's a really hardcore objective measure. Whereas, you know, a lot of the things that are being treated with with psychedelics are, there's really great questionnaires and things you can you can use to kind of get a feel for what's happening to somebody subjectively. But it's just that it's kind of a scale used to measure a subjective experience where I think it's neat, where we're going to actually be able to use a real scale in order to see how effective this was. Alex 24:18 Yeah, I think it's worth pointing out that. I mean, it seems like psilocybin has a unique application in that it's kind of working directly biomechanically potentially. And it's also doing a lot of deeper work, you know, that like spiritual surgery sort of thing. But I would love to maybe get your perspective on the current treatments out there, you know, why is bringing this as an option for people going to be so profound because people have been trying to make weight loss protocols for years, you know, yeah. What What can you say about the current industry and why psilocybin might be so special? Trevor 24:56 For sure. Well, there is. There are some prescriptions available some medications available for obesity, but not many before coming on here today, I just refreshed my memory. And it looks like there are about five in total, there, three of those are pills that you take every day. And two of those are injections, one I believe is once a month one is one is once every couple of weeks in for one, they all have the potential side effects that come with them. For two, they don't seem to be all that effective, I think, you know, within this world to be able to show kind of a 5% weight loss after a year is is pretty significant. Like you've kind of created a winning product if you show even just 5% weight loss. So we're hoping for at least that and hopefully more. And then there are there are other treatments that are out there, you know, group therapy, something like Overeaters Anonymous, some of the other kind of walk in and count your calories in a group setting. And with group support. I think the important aspect of those is the group support, and you know it through looking at different ways to develop this protocol. Group support is definitely one of the considerations, but it's, um, you know, there's just not a lot of great treatment options out there. And in speaking to Dr. Birmingham on our team, the obesity expert, that I that I mentioned earlier, he having been working towards treating obesity for the last 30 years, he was so keen to join our team is his realization that in unless you change a person's mind, you're not going to be successful at treating obesity for the for the most part. So I think that's the power of these psychedelic substances, you know, in the title of Michael Pollan's book, how to change your mind. So I think, I think Neil mind is really onto something. I think there's no and even you know, again, back to the Connect anecdotal or firsthand experience with these substances. Again, maybe being a bit trite, but when was the last time you were in the middle of a psilocybin session? Looking for a cheeseburger? Alex 27:29 No, yeah, totally. Yeah, geez, you just don't have an appetite when you're in the right. And you might be a little nauseous to a lot of people get really nauseous. Food is one of the last things that you're you're reaching for. Cannabis. On the other hand, that's Yeah, right. Yeah, mushrooms, for sure. And I want to point out the elephant in the room, which, you know, we talked about when we were bringing you on is like, there is a big emphasis in, you know, our politically correct culture right now of, you know, being anti fat phobic. And, you know, making sure that people know, all bodies are beautiful, and, and that it's not bad, right, or it's not wrong. And it's interesting, I've learned in, in one particular Iosco session that I did is, and the cordon detto afterwards had a great talk with, with everyone talking about, you know, the way he sees healing, and he was talking about, you know, this non judgmental mind of, you know, seeing trauma and seeing these quote, unquote, issues or problems. As you know, they're almost like visitors. Or, like guests crashing at in people's bodies, you know, the spirits just being guests in people's bodies and trauma, you know, we've found out that it passes on in nine generations, right? So it could be trauma from your great, great, great, great grandma, and it's not even your fault, and it wasn't even her fault. It they're like, you know, and it's, it's your it's just the guests living in your body. And it's, it's a spirit or a mindset, or whatever it is. That, you know, it's not, it's not their fault. They're still beautiful, they're still, you know, a worthy individual. They're still complete. And so I am curious how you navigate that. And I also want to add on it, it's interesting like I traveled to to South Africa, when I was a small kid, and we were hanging out with someone, and someone came up to them and was like, Hey, you look fat this morning. And we were like, what? Because as you know, Americans are people growing up the United States, like that's kind of an insult, right? A lot of people are fat phobic. And so being called fat is like, Oh my god, how could you but in South Africa, it was like such a compliment, right? You're like, oh, wow, you're well fed, right? You're nourish, and even, you know, some babies in, in China, like being a pudgy baby is like, beautiful. Like, it's like, wow, you're well fed, you're you're wealthy, you're nourished, you have enough food. And that's good, like being overweight, or whatever being a little larger is great. It's a beautiful thing. And it's celebrated. So it, I know this, I'm rambling here, but but another thing that you brought up earlier is it's not cut and dry. Right? So someone, food is everywhere. Someone eating less, could also be a bad thing. Right? So if they're going into anorexia, or they're maybe losing weight, but in their mind, they're like, fat is bad. I'm ugly, and they're beating themselves up. Yes, they might be losing weight. But are they getting better? And so I'm curious how you track that. And I know, there's a lot of questions there. So maybe, let's start, how do you how do you navigate kind of fat phobia? And kind of making sure that you're not being fat phobic? And yeah, Trevor 31:48 I think I think you've kind of answered it in there is like, it's just not coming at it from a place of judgment. This isn't good or bad. This is either a behavior that somebody is interested in changing this is, you know, something that somebody personally, and I think it really comes down to the individual level like this is not going to be for everyone. Some people are where they are and completely happy where they are. And kudos to them. If they are, I think where I personally like to get involved. And where I see me on mind heading is, is somebody suffering? Is somebody stuck? Is somebody running a feedback loops that they know, they would be better if they move beyond? And I think this option is is great for somebody like that. And, yeah, it's definitely not about judgment overall, I think, you know, for me, personally, then a lot of the people I've spoken to and worked with a key lesson and insight into being through the psychedelic experience is holy smokes, we are literally all one thing. So if you are looking outside of yourself and judging somebody else as less than that, that that thing you are casting judgment on is on a very deep level. Yeah. Right. You're you're projecting all over the place and right, you know, would you would you look at your pinky finger and say, oh, pinky finger, you're a bad thing? No, that would make you insane. That's really, when we look outside of ourselves and cast judgment on anyone. That's, you know, I think it's very similar. Like you we've mentioned a couple times. trauma is, is a key factor in how we develop and how we behave into adulthood it can can have something to do with generations back, as you mentioned, or trauma that happened within this lifetime. But these, the trauma tends to create a negative feedback loop. The psychedelic is very effective at helping somebody overcome the negative feedback loop. And it's not for everybody. We're definitely not trying to force I hope the whole psychedelic Renaissance is and trying to force these treatments down anybody's throat. But for those people who are stuck, who feel as though they've tried everything, who are looking for an alternative that has some promise, I think this could be it. Alex 34:44 This is so complicated. I love it. It's a juicy topic, because it is there's so many different factors that go into it and it is a complicated subject. For a clinical trial. I could totally see the one factor being weight right and Is it a bench mark for success? Right is they they lost weight, therefore it's successful. But as you said in the beginning, like your main mission is to help people suffering, right. And this is just a symptom of that suffering. And, you know, it might be caused from depression is that they're using, you know, food as a vise for that depression or whatever it is. Are there are you using other measurements? for success? You know, are key KPIs for, for your work of what's your overall level of happiness? Maybe you lost weight, but are you happier? You know, are you still beating yourself up? Like, are you? Do you still have that body dysmorphia? Like, even at a lesser weight? Right? And did we really solve the root issue? I was just curious of those other metrics. Trevor 36:00 Yeah, we have definitely discussed through this process. What else? Is there pretend the potential to measure through our process here? the you know, the the depression scale is an obvious one. I think in some of our earlier discussions, we were looking at, yeah, just looking at a few different angles. But you know, weight loss is definitely the the tangible target that we're going after. And this is what we're going to want to see as a drug development company. This is the, you know, it's going to be some kind of a hypothesis around weight loss. That brings us forward and brings us into that that'll be our question going into the clinical trial. But then, as a humanitarian, is it is it possible that somebody is going to do an experience like this, it completely reframes their relationship with their weight as they are. And maybe they're just happy to be who they are from then on. That's, that's a possibility as well, I think another in speaking to some of my colleagues at Johns Hopkins, this is kind of related to studies but is more anecdotal. But they have seen that people that have been through some of their studies do end up losing weight that often happens and kind of find a healthier lifestyle. I've definitely seen it with people that I treat with Ibogaine, they, they lose weight afterwards, not as, because they were really making a direct, direct attempt to lose weight, but because all of a sudden, they're happier, and they're treating themselves better. And one of the collateral benefits of that is they're eating healthier, and then therefore, they lose weight. So that's a lot, a lot of rabbit holes of potential to go down. Who knows, you know, who knows how any of these psychedelics are as effective as they seem to be. But yeah, there's just gonna be a lot to unpack. And I think that's why it's a real shame that we're 40 5060 years behind on some of this research, because I think had research not been shut down, we'd have a way better, kind of tangible, scientific understanding of what is happening here. Alex 38:24 Right? Well, better now than never. Absolutely. And lucky for us. Yeah, thanks for being part of it. I'm curious if you can speak to why you're focusing on that particular aspect of suicide. And because as we are talking about someone could go in have a psilocybin experience. And that could help with an array of trauma. But you guys are focused on sort of pitching the psilocybin as a way to relieve suffering for people who have poor relationship with eating? Yeah, Trevor 39:00 I think it I think it comes down to drug development and the practicality of turning this molecule which Yes, has been used safely and effectively for probably 1000s of years, if not more, but turning it into an FDA approved substance that gets a product monograph, and then can be prescribed by a doctor. In order to do that. You need a specific indications. So there's two clinical trials underway for psilocybin for depression, at least two, but and that's this specific indication, treatment resistant depression and another type of art to treat depression. So that will, that means that when a patient walks into a doctor's office one day, psilocybin will have been given a drug identifier, number and Will it be a prescription? So if somebody says I'm depressed, the doctor will be able to say, Well, why don't you try psilocybin for depression, and it's very much the same for the weight management avenue that we're headed towards is if a patient walks in and says, I'm having trouble losing weight, and I would like to lose weight, the doctor will be able to say, well, let's look at a prescription for psilocybin. And I'm, you know, as a founder of the Canadian psychedelic Association, one of our first initiatives was towards decriminalized nature, we did a federal e petition in Canada got 15,000 signatures, it was read in the House of Commons, I'm all for decriminalization, I want decriminalization tap, and I don't think prohibition on any level works. And I realized in my, my views have matured on this over the years. But I realized that if we are truly going to unleash the tsunami of healing, as I call it, that I would like to be a part of, in my lifetime, it's going to take these substances going through the very expensive drug development process in order to turn them into prescriptions, because there are certain people out there and perhaps the majority of people who will never allow themselves to experience the benefits of something like psilocybin, unless their doctor tells them, they should try it. So if you're going to take drugs through the very expensive drug development process, there, there should be some incentive in order to do that. And by focusing on by neon mind focusing on something like weight management, and being perhaps the first to market to do it, as far as we can see, by securing data exclusivity for at least the first kind of seven years within America, and or being able to see secure some of the patents that we've applied for that look very promising. This is kind of incentivizing neon mind to go into this very expensive process to try and make this substance more widely available. And it's just, you know, you've got to kind of pick your battles and neon mind has looked at this, it, it makes a lot of sense. Once you put any thought into it, it is a massive market, like more than $200 billion dollars a year is spent on weight management products, and indoor services, and not a lot is working. And again, without without judgment. The fact is that if you are, you know, especially kind of extremely overweight, your chances of getting other diseases goes up. And you know, if you if you know that you cannot change your behavior, to live a healthier lifestyle. And there's the potential for something to come to market that might help you change the behavior in the way that you want. I think that I think that's a really noble cause for me on mine to try and get out there and try and do something about it. Alex 43:37 Walk me through kind of how you anticipate this working. I'm really curious. So say you do these human clinical trials, you get this golden stamp of approval, and you're ready to is it you know, What, are you making pure psilocybin and a bioreactor and are in a lab and then putting in a pill? Is it a microdose? microdose? Unknown Speaker 44:04 Yeah. Alex 44:05 Do you add different things to it? Is it neon mind on the label? And, you know, when doctors are looking to prescribe this, I'm sure there's a million other companies that have, you know, psilocybin and if it if this research is out there that psilocybin helps with this certain thing, is it just neon mines because you have a patent on it or so the doctors can only prescribe neon mine because that research is tied to us specifically for what a short period of time or after I think you said seven years can other companies come in, just kind of walk me through how, how this how this works, and can they take the psilocybin home Do you think and take the dose, like medical marijuana, right, they can smoke at home, or do they have to do the dose at the hospital or wherever they are? Trevor 44:59 So a lot of good questions there. For one neon mind isn't specifically getting into the psilocybin manufacturing business. We're working so far with Sai Jen, who is a Canadian company that has licenses to produce at least six psychedelics. And we have, for the first part of our trial anyway secured psilocybin from them, just like maps in the States, they aren't manufacturing their MDMA they're purchasing from elsewhere. And just like maps in the States, if if somebody wants to, in the future, prescribe MDMA for PTSD for one of their patients, it needs to be done by somebody who is it needs to be facilitated by somebody who has been through the maps training, licensed in the maps way. And it is those people who are going to be able to have access to the prescription supply of the MDMA. So it could unfold a bunch of different ways. But that's at least one potential Avenue is neon mind will kind of authorize you know, people who have been through the training as it were to administer MDMA, we're looking at also, as has been announced, we're looking at our own mental health clinics were starting not right away and moving towards, you know, potentially ketamine as an example, we're looking at very, you know, community centric mental health clinics, that once MDMA, or pardon me, once psilocybin has been developed and approved for treating weight management, then that could potentially be offered at the neon mind clinics that we're moving towards, as well. Um, and then, yeah, so if, if we are able to secure a patent for the psilocybin, then, again, I'm a fan of if somebody has a unique, inventive idea. And they're the first to come up with that idea. That's what patents are for. And that's the direction neon white mind will move if the patents welled up. And then the other avenue, which is similar to the direction maps is taken is because they aren't trying to patent MDMA for post traumatic stress disorder, because that isn't really a novel idea. It's just it's something that we've known for decades that MDMA has the potential to treat Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. But what they are granted by the FDA is exclusivity on their data that they produce. So for a period of I believe it's about seven years, nobody else can use that data in order to create MDMA, which is then prescribed. So, you know, that's not a, that's not a 2040 year old 40. I think 20 I think 20 is more where it's at is your protection from a patent, before generics can kind of come on the market, but seven years is still a long time. And if you can, yeah, if you can create a real impact if people want to, you know, respect maps want to turn to maps for their MDMA, they'll be able to do that forever. And then when you look at areas outside of the US, I think the EU has something like a 13 year window on something like that. So you know, it's a it's a big world out there will, will maps be baking the, you know, will it be a billion or multi billion dollar product like some of the more conventional pharmaceuticals? Who knows, but I don't know that that's really what Rick Doblin is after I think Rick Doblin is more about healing the masses. And he he's happy with moving that needle forward. However he can. And I think that's, that's pretty Noble. Alex 49:24 And in terms of affordability for people in relation to these other kind of mainstream alternatives that are out there right now. I'm sure this is part of your discussions as a company and and discussions with side Jen and I didn't know all of this work is probably outrageously expensive from the clinical trials to the permits to everything. Can you stay price competitive or can you make it more affordable for people do you think during the beginning, it will Be maybe a little more expensive, but with hopes to making it cheaper? Mm hmm. Trevor 50:08 That question reminds me of another question you posed a few minutes ago is, you know, will people be able to go to the drugstore, get silicided and go home with it? That will not be the case for the macro doses? Because that is going to be within your therapy. Yeah, exactly. Right. The therapeutic context where there is a number of therapists involved, you come into the office for your six to eight hour session, you do that perhaps twice will be the protocol. And, yeah, and then, but looking at the micro dosing in the future, that would be the case for micro dosing in the future, if we are able to move that needle forward again, as it were. And then, you know, price. And, and it's, it's looking at maps, again, it's, they're looking at, I think, around $15,000, us for their MDMA to treat PTSD, I think that's a lowball number of what it will cost per person. And maps really went over the top on making sure that the protocol was really jam packed, and kind of over the top with safety. And I think there is within the therapeutic psychedelic space a way to, to remain safe and to get the prices back a little bit. But again, it's it's kind of relative, like, do you want to be on SSRIs for the rest of your life in and pay for that, which could be 1000s and 1000s of dollars, spread out over yours? Or would you like to get it done all at once and have it work, and kind of just move on with your life. So it's, I have a friend in the insurance industry, and he saw a slide presentation on the potential of psychedelic therapy and he was brand new to the field hadn't even considered it before he saw this presentation. And there was a statistic on back to work statistics within this slide presentation that we were watching. This guy stood up in the middle of the presentation, he said, that's the only statistic we talk about in the insurance industry is getting people back to work. So a little upfront cost to actually get people back to work or on track with their lives so that they can be more productive, happier, live healthier lives. I think those are all the things that need to be considered when we're we're looking at pricing. Alex 52:55 Right. And it figures I there's so much news recently about the billionaire space race, and I was reading this article about, you know, how a lot of new industries, they're just talking about, you know, air travel and all these different things. When they first came out there stupidly expensive, you know, and now it's almost commonplace, like if someone was traveling, someone getting somewhere getting an airplane ticket is like, for a lot of people is not crazy, right? It's not this insane luxury. It's still there still expensive for a lot of people, but it's not only reserved for the elite, like going to space would be but I'm not saying I'm for it, I think money would be better spent elsewhere. But, you know, this could be the same as applied here of you know, this is not a lot of people doing it, there's not a lot of infrastructure, you got to figure it out. You got to do the human clinical trials, and it's not cheap. Right. And so with time, I think this will be very, hopefully very affordable for people. But there's got to be people like you guys being, you know, the front tears, taking all the arrows and, you know, making it a reality, right, because without it, it would not exist. So Trevor 54:36 absolutely. I think it will get less expensive. I just really hope the quality of care stays up and perhaps even gets better. But yeah, I'm, I'm speaking to you from a pocket supercomputer that hadn't been, you know, the 1960s with this computing power, it would have cost hundreds of millions of dollars. It's right The technology didn't even exist. So, yeah, I, I have, I have great hope for this entire field, I think there are so many amazing people involved, people who have been empowered by the gifts these substances can can offer somebody. And, you know, I'm part of setting up a psychedelic business trade association as well. So I've had the real good fortune to speak to a good many CEOs within this space. And I see a lot of good people who are asking themselves the hard questions, asking questions about reciprocity, and giving back and, and, and pro bono aspects and making sure this is a community endeavor. And surely, that's not everybody, but I have tremendous hope for the industry overall, I think we're headed in the right direction. Alex 55:58 Yeah. And I also think that, you know, psilocybin in the psychedelic space, there's something inherently empathetic about it. So it's, it's tough to sell these substances and preach about them and not actually care. So, yeah, it's good. And I'm, it's great to speak with you and get to know you a little bit better and know that you and people like you, that you admire are behind all of this, Canada is a huge inspiration. And I hope that the United States is not too far behind. And with that, we have a closing question. And that is, what do you hope to see in the coming decades for this space? And you kind of talked about this the whole episode, but is there anything else that you want to mention? Maybe there's people out here listening? Who are getting into this space? Or who want to support this space? Um, how, what do you need? Who do you Who do you need more of in the space etc. Trevor 57:03 Um, you know, my grand vision, my, my 1020 and beyond 20 year and beyond vision is that we do take the lessons of unity, and, you know, love, and support, and a more ecological mindset that comes from thoughts like that in really transform first our individual lives, and then the world at large. So I'm, I wouldn't call me, psychedelic evangelist, but I have really seen tremendous transformation from these substances in the lives of hundreds of people. So my dream is that these substances would be an aspect of the catalyst that actually starts healing the world. And we're in a very divisive time right now, that's for sure. But going through an experience like this, realizing the humanity in everybody that we see, and everybody's just doing the best that they can, and having a little compassion, being filled with forgiveness. And yeah, bringing bringing us together to heal all the things that need to be healed on Earth right now, I think we're kind of standing on a precipice. And we have the potential, I think, especially this community, I've said in the past that if we as the psychedelic community, who have all these incredible substances and the lessons they impart within us, if we can't find a way to get along, there's really no for the rest of the world. So I hope that we, as the so called psychedelic community can really come together can we don't have to agree with everything, but if we can really just double down on the fact that we, we are humans, we respect each other, we love each other on a on a deep, profound level, when you see that, and I hope, like I say, we can be the catalyst that really shifts things. And for people that are wondering what to do, I always advise a lot of people want to get involved in this space. I advise people to just plug into the community find a local psychedelic society. There's a map of those on our psychedelic Association dotnet website that Mike Margolies put together and allows us to share, but I think becoming a part of the community, learning what it's like to be in community around A topic that you're so passionate about as we most of us are with these substances. And I think it's, I think it's that coming together like the mycelial network that's going to heal the world in the end. Alex 1:00:13 Thank you so much for coming on. I'm, I'm so excited for this whole space and you know, whether it's going through, you know, a more institutionalize setting like your your clinics, or just people being able to grow at home and, you know, create their own safe set and settings that they can partake in, to really transform their lives. I think. psilocybin, you know, has been part of almost every single culture throughout 1000s and 1000s of years, all throughout the world, and it is so powerful, and I'm so excited to see mushrooms really changed so many people's lives. It's it's really special. Me too. Thanks for having me on the show. Thank you much fan for tuning in to another episode. And now it is time for listener appreciation by reading a review. So this week's review is from Jen Art 111 rare and fascinating info from this fun duo. I love Laura and Alex's personalities and the upbeat and fun cadence of this informative all things cool mushroom podcast, as well as the guests they are sharing with the world. They are also fascinating. Thank you guys, Jenner. Thank you not only for the review, but for paying attention to mushrooms and indulging in all these myco logical conversations seriously. Thank you for everyone tuning in, even if you did not write a review, as always much love and made the spores be with you.